The Two S&L Dies for RK's

[Dave Kane]

I see...but can't we STOP with the A or B type and accept just ONE die and continue to search the time line?

The 'illusion' of A and B when in fact they are the same just confuses things....

History is constantly 'glossed' over with 'prove it isn't' crap coupled with ego that it gets so confounding that we overlook the obvious...

[George Stimson]

"The 'illusion' of A and B when in fact they are the same just confuses things...."

Has it been established that "in fact they are the same"? If not, I wish people wouldn't say so.

[Tiger 1]

And, Tony, when you go beyond the history of many many possibilities to what S&L actually DID do, then respect. Until then it's a re-telling of varied die processes which may or may NOT apply. Emphasis on NOT.

Brian,

Open your mind a bit my friend. You are adamntly denying an alternate possibility can exist. NOT?

I will go beyond what I wrote about.

Please look at the following references. It sheds light on what S&L DID do.

"The Prussian and German Iron Cross" by Vern E. Bowen. 1st edition, Published 1986...........Page 29,

"A number of designs were submitted; final approval being given to a 44mm sized 2nd Class and 1st Class cross and a 48mm sized Knight's Cross. The rims were designed by Master Engraver Herr Escher of the Ludenscheid firm (S&L), as indeed were the new center plates. Work was put in hand and production commenced."

"Das Eiserne Kreuz 1813-1939" Published 1990 by the Deutsches Ordensmuseum Ludenscheid.............Page 181.

A picture of Master Engraver Emil Escher with the caption; "Graveurmeister Emil Escher, Ludenscheid, entwarf und gravierte das Eiserne Kreuz 1939. Zeitgenossische Aufnahme Oktober 1940." ( Master Engraver Emil Escher Ludenscheid, designer and engraver of the Iron Cross 1919. Contemporary picture october 1940.) My apologies to the native German speekers for this loose translation.

"The Iron Cross 1939." article by Gregory Douglas published in The Military Advisor, Volume 2, Number4, Fall 1991...........page 15.

"All military and civil decorations of the Third Reich had to be approved by the Orders Chancellery in Berlin. Designs were submitted to this agency, and it's director, Dr. Heinrich Doelhe, was responsible for apportioning the contracts to various purveyor firms officially approved to manufacture decorations.

The initial patterns for the 1939 Iron Cross were prepared by the head engraver of SAteinhauer & Luck in Ludenscheid, Emil Escher. The completed patterns were approved by Dr. Doehle and sent out to other firms as official patterns from which EACH ADDITIONAL PURVEYOR COULD PREPARE THEIR OWN DIES." (my italics).

Further down the page.........

"The initial orders for decorations were given to actual orders manufacturers such as C.E. Juncker and Godet of Berlin and Steinhauer & Luck of Ludenscheid...."

These are bits gleaned from previous works done by other students of the Iron Cross other than myself. There are several more that I cannot find at this time in my references. I will gladly post them also when I do find them.

But then again these folks might know a bit more because their emphasis was not on "NOT".

All the best,

Tony

[Tiger 1]

Now, Tony, earn my respect....................

Sorry friend,

Respect is given and not sought.

Tony

[Tiger 1]

I see...but can't we STOP with the A or B type and accept just ONE die and continue to search the time line?

The 'illusion' of A and B when in fact they are the same just confuses things....

History is constantly 'glossed' over with 'prove it isn't' crap coupled with ego that it gets so confounding that we overlook the obvious...

Dave,

"......We overlook the obvious...."

If a Master Die is used to make the Hub which in turn is used to make the Working Dies then it stands to reason that multiple dies produced off the Hub would be identical. Hence multiple working dies. A, B or what ever. It is linear and very simple.

Tony

[Brian S]

Tony, I don't get it? I know they had a master engraver. And he made one die.

Dietrich, heavily frosted crosses, created by acid burn away the evidence Dave showed.

Dave, you've clearly shown the repair. I can't believe it's not screaming at people. You've photographed it perfectly.

[Tiger 1]

Brian,

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!! The Master Die! From which the individual Hubs were made and from them the working dies!

Alleluyah!!!!!!!

Tony

[Brian S]

Your position is duly noted Tony. Repeatedly. Now can you explain the inconsistencies with your assertion of a single master die? No. A history of die making and techniques does not explain what we are seeing here.

[Brian S]

George, that means never because an S&L die maker or even someone who worked with the S&L dies to create crosses has not been interviewed that I know of.

So we are left with questions to answer from what we see.

1) Why did S&L wait so long to produce now another Type cross? The RK was badly flawed visibly so and it bothered S&L enough to produce a better cross. If the master was sitting around, why not utilize it earler?

2) If it was so easy to produce another daughter die why settle for one that was itself flawed? And began to flaw like it's older daughter so quickly? Why wasn't this one tossed and another quickly produced that was indeed perfect.

3) Unless a Pantograph utilized for this die used the bit the size of a sewing needle, the Pantograph is out of the question. Dave has shown us microscopic die characteristics that could only be copied with the most microscopic of bits.

4) Has anyone studied the known Type 'A' cross flaws microscopically to the early Type 'B' to see if any evidence is visible of a die re-work?

5) Has anyone studied the later Type 'B' crosses with flaws to see if the re-work failed and if so is it an exact match to the later flawed Type 'A'. Obviously new flaws would have developed but are there fingerprints of old flaws that match the later Type 'B' flaws?

Many questions.

Tony, without quoting a book can please answer these questions?

[George Stimson]

"Dave, you've clearly shown the repair. I can't believe it's not screaming at people. You've photographed it perfectly."

Dave, could you please post your pics of the area you believe was repaired again with a clear explanation of what they show so the rest of us can see what Brian is seeing? Or if it's easier, could you add text to the pics you already posted which explains what they show?

[Tiger 1]

The initial patterns for the 1939 Iron Cross were prepared by the head engraver of Steinhauer & Luck in Ludenscheid, Emil Escher. The completed patterns were approved by Dr. Doehle and sent out to other firms as official patterns from which EACH ADDITIONAL PURVEYOR COULD PREPARE THEIR OWN DIES." (my italics).

Tony

Brian,

It's not often that I can quote myself.

Tony

[Tiger 1]

Tony, without quoting a book can please answer these questions?

Brian,

I quoted the 'book's just in case you didn't have those references. There is knowledge else where other than just the internet or this forum, as excellent as it is.

I will work on it when I have a time. Not tonight though.

I will keep an open mind about it also. The truth sometimes leads us to where we don't really want to go. You ought to try it more often.

Also the strength of the acid solution used for Pickeling that produces the wonderful frost on silver items is deluted to such a point where it will not cause the acid 'burn' that is used for deep etching of metal. Pickeling is meant as a chemical cleansing agent when used in silversmithing that involves soldering. On a production basis where the item is submerged just enough to clean off the soldering flux and other burn residue the pickeling will not degrade te surface details, just frost it. Maybe if you leave it overnight or some other unreasonable time it may do so but I doubt that this was the case with the pickeling of EK/KC frames after soldering. This pickeling process and results I know thru use and not out of a 'book'.

Tony

[Tiger 1]

Open Question.

Can anyone show me/us the actual repairs that were done on the S&L die itself?

I'm not talking about the results of such a repair that supposedly is evident on the beading of some KCs. I'm asking about the actual die that has been repaired.

Thanks! I look forward to the show and tell.

See you all tomorrow it's my bed time.

Tony

[Sal Williams]

Ok , I will leave you guys to it then. This seems like a discussion between 3 people and Tony (who has made sense imo) anyways. Brian, a STOIC defense of your RK!

[tom hansen]

Sal-


I believe Brian has a "type A" and not a "type B" S&L.