The Two S&L Dies for RK's

[milsurp]

I have always been an advocate of the mother/daughter die theory, I don't understand why anyone would think RK's are produced any other way.... Below is a small diagram that enhances Tiger1's description of the coin manufacturing process.

[George Stimson]

Well, whenever is started -- and the RK was instituted in 1939 -- I bet that few people in 1939 thought that it would be totally finished as soon as 1945. (And I'd imagine that the production of decorations was a high priority -- to the people who manufactured them for a living.)

[Tiger 1]

Dave,

We have to put the different die working processes into proper perspective.

The smaller and thinner the metal the less force and effort needed to shape it. Conversely the larger and thicker the metal more force is necessary to work it in a die.

One certainly doesn't need 10,000 lbs of pressure to move around a thin piece of soft silver. You can easily prove that for yourself by sacrificing a 90% silver(pre 64) American dime. Just take a very small 8 oz ball peen hammer and gently tap the surafce of the dime as it lays on another hard surface. I'm very sure that even using just yoiur wrist motion to power this small hammer you will move the silver around.

The heavier pressures were used in the forging of badges as the metal used was thicker and harder and the finished product had much more mass that the thin EK/KC frames. Some of the badges had to be forged or worked in a heated state just to be able to fill the die without cracks in the finished product. this is maleability. Some metals can be worked easily without heating while others require that they be hot to flow properly. In other words cold working and hot working.

The Pantagraphs that were mentioned and that I breifly described above are used in the minting of coins and other medals and medalions that have a more intricate and massive design than does the frame of an EK or KC. These pantagraphs are used in conjunction with a model that can be 5:1 or even 12:1 in ratio.

The size of the EK/KC frame dies wasn't so intricate that they required a model. As I mentioned above the original master die set was hand cut by S&Ls Master Engraver Herr Escher.

We also have to remember that the methods we use today in industry are vastly different in some ways than those used just a few short decades ago. Having said that, the craft of the jeweler and metalsmith has changed very little in the the long centuries those skills have been practised by man. The tools may have gotten better but the techniques of basically hand crafting these semi precious metal objects remains largely unchanged. You still need an egg and a frying pan to fry eggs!

Hope this makes it a bit clearer.

[Tiger 1]

I have always been an advocate of the mother/daughter die theory, I don't understand why anyone would think RK's are produced any other way.... Below is a small diagram that enhances Tiger1's description of the coin manufacturing process.

Craig,

Pretty good representation. The fulcrum represents the three dimensional copying that would occur with the Janvier Lathe.

That is the method used with the Janvier Lathe to copy the Galvano mold to make dies. This method is specifically for a planned mass production of almost countless examples. Witness the multiple Hubs.

That many hubs would certainly not be needed to make a few KC frame working dies. One hub can produce numerous usable working dies.

If my memory serves me right I read somewhere that the dies used to strike the US silver dollar had a working life of between 200,000 and 750,000 coins struck before it was pulled from sevice due to appreciable wear. The US silver dollar is much thicker planchet than that used on the EK/KC frame.

Tony

[Brian S]

Lots of good reading on modern die techniques. What's missing is what did S&L do in 1944.

Although Dietrich says the die don't lie, it still hides its secrets.

I cannot accept the second die theory based on the Dent Row.

The Dent Row is a straight line of what is clearly a material drip. Why a material drip? To effect repairs.

All the theories, all the modern examples of coin dies and techniques, but none of them apply.

Have any of you seen a "perfect copy" of a $20 gold piece or any other coin with a dent row? I haven't.

Focus on what you see, please, the evidence is overwhelming unless you mix techniques and processes with no explanation of the Dent Row AKA Material Drip. The Material Drip of a material hard and durable enough to stand up to hundreds of presses and remain, can only be die repair material.

[George Stimson]

Does anybody know what kind of material would be used to repair a die, and how it would be applied?

[Brian S]

Look above, I showed you a link and different kinds of material of various hardness. It comes in a wire and is melted into the crevices. Then carefully worked to smooth the repair.

Repair material is much better today. The link tells us 1954 was a breakthrough in material quality. It tells us before that dies were repaired than failed over and over after use.

Fact.

[George Stimson]

Thank you.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Focus on what you see, please, the evidence is overwhelming unless you mix techniques and processes with no explanation of the Dent Row AKA Material Drip. The Material Drip of a material hard and durable enough to stand up to hundreds of presses and remain, can only be die repair material.

So it is absolutely and 100% clear that "material drip" (which I agree it is) can only happen with a refurbished die but not with a new die?

Here's is what happened: The new die was put under the press. The foreman said "Hey, there's a problem with the upper part of the press - let's fix it! Hans, come here and put a spot weld on that crack up there!" Hans does, and material drips into the new die, which Karl forgot to cover up.....

Far fetched! Of course! Possible? Yes! Probable? Maybe - maybe not.


Dietrich

[Tiger 1]

Brian,

With due respect, please give some of us some credit. The die techniques and processes that I described above are not solely 'modern'.

The portrait lathe I mentioned was in use around 1836. The Hill reducing machine was in use in 1867. The Janvier Lathe with the Galvano molds process was in operation in 1907. hardly modern by todays standards.

These industial production techneques were were no secret and were pretty much universal among industrialised nations at the turn of the century.

As I mentioned before and is noted in Bowen's book and elsewhere, Herr Escher the Master Engraver for S&L is known to have hand cut the original master dies for the then new series(1939) Iron Cross which included the KC. That we do know.

One could presume that in the short span of less than five years from 1939 to 1944 that S&L would not have radically changed the way they made the KC. I may well be wrong but if they did indeed change methods there seems to be no record of that at this time.

Tony

[Tiger 1]

Brian,

I have a question. What is a 'material drip'? What is this technique and when did it come into use? Is it a form of welding?

Please keep in mind that in the German arms industry which used many dies and similar production processes, the use of welds is not acceptable on the main components of firearms. Welding in fact put a firearm out of proof and unacceptable for service. I'm not talking about the very late welded barrel bands or stamped and welded trigger guards.

I'm sure that a major metal working nation such as Germany would also have set standards about dies and other industrial tooling. Tool makers in general are just that. Tool makers. A large firm such as S&L had their own in house tool and die people to keep the production of necessary items flowing smoothly. I doubt that they would have spent much time jury rigging a cracked die when the master die and hub was readily available and could produce another working die in a few hours or several days at the very most.

The production of EKs and KCs wasn't S&Ls only wartime product. Their employees had plenty of work.

Just some questions and further thoughts.

Tony

[Dave Kane]

Good morning all! I see we are at it again...so let's go

Dietrich, will you please address my posts #'s 352 and 358 and tell me (us) how you 'know' of this method.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

there is a plaster model of a cross in the entrance hall of the mayor office in Luedenscheid. Gordon posted this once.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

I see but that doesn't mean it was used in die production or even how it was used at all....

The reason I'm asking is that there's a lot of "FACTS" being thrown out about die production but none verified. After 25 pages we're still nowhere near to truely knowing how this was accomplished.

I was always under the impression that the die were "hand cut" a very labor intensive, time consuming and expensive undertaking and further clarified by Tony.

It just sort of contradicts the 'simple out' of multiple die but does lend some credance to attempting to make last a very, very expensive piece of production equipment.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

not quite true - the statement about 25 pages and no result...

It might be that you think that the dies were painstakingly cut by hand, but the machine in the earlier post (#305) shows that it was (maybe) not done like that and that a model was used. I have to look thru my books this evening and will hopefully find the description why and how the plaster model was used in connection with this machine. I'm not making this up.

Tony also points out that those machines were in use way before 1939.

Now, that does not mean that it was done with such a machine nor does it mean it was done by hand. It only means that we do not know and each side chooses to believe what fits the individual theory brought forward.

And this will stay exacly the same for the next 25 pages, if it runs that long.

Dietrich