The Two S&L Dies for RK's

[Dietrich Maerz]

A repaired, refurbished or rehabilitated die is clearly the answer when one accepts that the machine (pantograph?) couldn't possibly add or delete detail and surely couldn't reproduce the two dozen or so microscopic flaws, fingerprints or landmarks that have been shown.

When one accepts that, then you are right. But before I can accept that, I need to know two things:

- is it clear that the minute flaws are NOT a result of the pantograph copying process, and
- if no: how did they come into existence?
- if yes: why not again the second time around?

But as I said earlier numerous times: It does not matter, the result is the same.

And to answer Tom's fear about perfect Juncker copies. I don't think this can happen if one does not have the 5:1 model (under the assumption that the minute flaws are part of this model). And, in addition, as Dave rightly pointed out earlier: It takes more then just the dies. There are still a lot of other things to consider.

Perfect Juncker (or whatever maker) copies from Latvia or from wherever? I absolutely don't think so! No way!

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich it most certainly matters! As you recall the direction of all of this was to determine post war Knight's Crosses made from S&L die....


If it's left loose as with the 'possibility' of multi die then all will go by the wayside because the standard answer will go away from......"Oh, it's late war..." or "they were rushed" and a great one.."Iron was in short supply"!!

Given the opportunity to pick and choose die usage...that will be the new dealer mantra!

We have to get it to an absolute or the next segment will be a useless excercise.......the 'timeline'!

[tom hansen]

When one accepts that, then you are right. But before I can accept that, I need to know two things:

- is it clear that the minute flaws are NOT a result of the pantograph copying process, and
- if no: how did they come into existence?
- if yes: why not again the second time around?

But as I said earlier numerous times: It does not matter, the result is the same.

And to answer Tom's fear about perfect Juncker copies. I don't think this can happen if one does not have the 5:1 model (under the assumption that the minute flaws are part of this model). And, in addition, as Dave rightly pointed out earlier: It takes more then just the dies. There are still a lot of other things to consider.

Perfect Juncker (or whatever maker) copies from Latvia or from wherever? I absolutely don't think so! No way!

Dietrich

I agree completey that perfect copies are impossible, unless one is using the same die.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave

I know exactly what you mean: Dies left and right. Early and late models, special models and limited edition for Hermann Goering!

Some dealers (by far not all!!!) will tell the potential buyer everything and a lot of buyers are buying everything, mainly they are buying the dealer, not the piece.

No matter whats written here, whats discovered here or what has been proven beyond doubt here - certain dealers will not care at all.
Have alook at some dealer sites: You will find the same S&L in 6 month, 12 month and two years from now! Why? Not because it might be pre or post war! Because "I bought it from XXXXX and that's why it's real"

We can only add to the knowledge of the collector, not to the knowledge of certain dealers.

And to make one thing perfectly clear: There are ONLY TWO types of legitimate S&L 'swastika' crosses and there are post-45 Type B crosses (one is in the mail to me right now as we speak....) and whoever comes up with a 4th type (3rd type being the 1957 dipping ring) is on very thin ice, to say the least.

We will try to draw the line between pre- and post 45 B-Type. But this will have no bearing whatsoever on the general market offering of some dealer.

One die, two dies, refurbished die, does not matter for them!

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

"I agree completey that perfect copies are impossible, unless one is using the same die."

Does this also apply to perfect copies (daughters) being made from the same (mother) die? <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[tom hansen]

"I agree completey that perfect copies are impossible, unless one is using the same die."

Does this also apply to perfect copies (daughters) being made from the same (mother) die? <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

I guess if it is a perfect copy then the products produced are identical. There would be no difference in products produced from the identical perfect copies. If this was the case, we would not be talking about repaired or second dies.

[George Stimson]

So it would be possible for two daughters made from the same mother to have the identical flaws Dave pointed out and also to go on to develop unique flaws of their own?

[Dietrich Maerz]

George,

developing flaws over the live time of the die is always possible as indicated with the 'growth' of the 3 o'clock flaw.
The question is more "having unique flaws from the beginning on (the dent row, the knee flaw)"

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

"The question is more "having unique flaws from the beginning on (the dent row, the knee flaw)""

Right. But this is possible, yes?

[Dietrich Maerz]

My opinion is "yes".

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

Thank you.

[tom hansen]

So it would be possible for two daughters made from the same mother to have the identical flaws Dave pointed out and also to go on to develop unique flaws of their own?

I would think that the development of separate and progressive die flaws in each type, A or B, would be expected over time.

It seems as though the issue of disagreement is whether the die was repaired, as Brian has suggested, or whether there was a mother/daughter die, as Dietrich has suggested.

[Dave Kane]

One die!!! If indeed it was so cost effective and easy to clone why then do we have such severely flawed crosses....


Logic mandates that at the first sign of VISUAL imperfection the press is stopped and the defective die removed and new die placed. Hardly any production time lost...

Heck let's jump to '57....why wasn't the great grandaughter used if offspring were SO easly produced....why was a brand new die produced and put in to service.????

[George Stimson]

Maybe a set of duplicate dies was made from the mother at the outset of the war and the dies were changed as the need dictated. Perhaps by 1957 the mother die was no longer available and so a completely new die was made.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

before we all go down into senseless pragmatism about one die or two dies, do me a favor:

Take your S&L in your hand. Look at it from normal viewing distance of 5-6 inches. Look at the beading. Look how fine it is! Now imagine the flaws at the 3 o'clock arm. How tiny they are!

And then you tell me how they fixed the pyramidial cracks in the die. Without leaving any trace at all (which I can confirm by looking at the B-model 935-4 right now)

I have not even the slightest idea how that could be done! Other than replacing the whole area and mill the profile out again...

Dietrich