The Two S&L Dies for RK's

[George Stimson]

Does anybody have any idea what the cost of rehabilitaing a worn die or manufacturing a new die would be?

[Dave Kane]

ABSOLUTELY!!!! As long as it is made clear to the community that the S&L die was nursed, used and abused but all along the same hunk of metal!!!


With that defined and understood we may be able to define the question of when the PK#ed items entered the picture AND why the lack of L/16 Knight's Crosses!

The connotation of A and B however to someone who just jumps in to this may be confusing so I wonder if we couldn't come up with a 'clear' and generally accepted nomenclature for the wartime repair period of which I think ended way before 1945!

[George Stimson]

Shouldn't we first determine that it would be more economically (or otherwise) feasible to keep repairing a worn die rather than just make a new one? Again, does anybody know which is less expensive?

[tom hansen]

3

Okay, guys- thanks. That single die theory with the repair sure seems to explain all the information that Dietrich, Brian, and Dave have presented. I am just sitting on the sidelines reading all this information, that theory appears to explain the current information presented and what was felt previously to be inconsistencies.

George- I think this was discussed several weeks ago and a member who is familiar with die production (I do not recall off hand who it was), and is currently employed in that capacity, said they were expensive. I had since contacted my brother in law who has been a tool and die guy for 25 years. He creates dies for manufacture of tools and machine parts for the manufacture of tire rims. He said dies to create simple geometric objects is pretty easy, but complex objects are a bitch.

[Dave Kane]

George, haven't you looked at the pictures I posted???

[George Stimson]

Sure I've looked at them. They're very nice. But can anybody answer my question?

[George Stimson]

And, can anybody answer this question:

Does anybody reading this thread actually know anything about the mother/daughter die making process and whether minute flaws (characteristics) would be replicated on two daughters from the same mother?

[Dave Kane]

George...the copy machine in the office broke down 4 times last year at the office. On each occasion it cost for the tech's time and the parts. Averaging $200 per visit I chose repair and rehabilation against a $23,000.00 one time pay or a lease of over $500 per month for 5 years and a final 'buy out' of $1.

[Dietrich Maerz]

ABSOLUTELY!!!! As long as it is made clear to the community that the S&L die was nursed, used and abused but all along the same hunk of metal!!!

Let me think about that! I still strongly believe there was a second die because there is the knee flaw and I have a huge problem as an engineer to see how the repair could have been done w/o any trace whatsoever. I will check my "mechanics" sources regarding feasibility/possibility. And also in regards of copying the minute flaws, of course.

Anyhow, going forward as Dave suggested from this point on is not a problem. We all agree on the "A" and "B" Cross-Type (not neccessarily die type) and now it's time to nail down a possible time line.


Now wasn't that fun

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

Dave, that's very interesting information on the copy machine, but with all due respect it has absolutely nothing to do with making metal stamping dies. I guess I'll have to call a metal fabricating shop to get answers to my questions. Or better yet, I'll visit one. And just to make sure there's no confusion about what I want to know, I'll take this along to show to the personnel there.

[Dave Kane]

Simple economics George! I don't think the direction of business and production has changed that much in these few decades!

You asked a question which is impossible to answer because none of us were around at that time and even a 'modern' shop won't be any help because of the computers , CNC machines etc that can 'create' a throwaway die and easly make another.

Keep the product going and we make $$$....stop the shop and we lose $$$

[Marc Garlasco]

I think it is important that I restate something I said in a better way so it is not taken out of contect.

I think it is great that even though Dietrich initially thought (before the reserach) there was just one die, that he was open to the fact he may be wrong. I did not mean to imply he has waffled...

As an aside, I enjoy Belgian waffles because I am a maple syrup addict and it is so nice how they hold the syrup...

Marc

[Dave Kane]

We're all not on the same page just yet Marc!


No one has signed off on it but we are heading in that direction....I'm confident of the ultimate outcome and as we have seen before it takes a lot of discussion to get through even some 'simple wording'!

[George Stimson]

Dave, if it's impossible to answer the question, then why do some people insist on "answering" it by saying, "Why of course they would fix the old die! Making a new one would be too expensive!"?

[Dietrich Maerz]

As long as the collecting community understands that there are two Cross Types ( A and B) is think that the rest is semantics. Two dies (whic I still think) or one die refurbished has EXACTLY the same outcome. And that is the only important thing.

The dies question comes really down to what is more likely:

- to repair without any trace and introduction of new flaws???
- to copy with all minute flaws and introduction of new flaws??

I thought in my investigation that a new die is the answer!

But all that has no bearing on the identification of each type, IMHO.

Dietrich