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**boch_62** · 01-23-2019, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Yubari View Post

then it can mean, that S&L supplied Brehmer with frames? at some point?

Some believe that S&L in the first years of the EK2-1939 crosses production, provided mother matrices for about 50 other producers.
These crosses are called the "S&L design" type.
However, this has nothing to do with the recognition of this particular cross

IMO

Regards
Jarek

**Douglas 5** · 01-23-2019, 02:59 PM

On page 46 of the Deschler book it states a quote from Paul Preuss - a clerk from S&L - that amongst other things also , as their own contract , to supply
" a group of contracted manufacturers" the same - (Wekrkzeuge) = 'Tooling' -- to ensure that the Iron Crosses would have the same overall general appearance .
It is not just " some believe ... that S&L provided dies to about 50 other manufacturers ..." but that is what really happened .
I have not seen it - but to print this in the book there would have to be some original document/letter to substantiate this claim .

The slanted bead is one of the main and the easiest recognizable features of a S&L frame die showing the supplier of that frame die .

That said - by itself it is not a feature that identifies the company using that die .
Some early unmarked crosses with that feature create a real challenge to identify and many other features have to be used instead .
Brehmer and Rettenmaier frames also have this slanted bead .

Douglas

Attached Files

S&L frame.jpg (149.9 KB, 47 views)

**boch_62** · 01-24-2019, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by Douglas 5 View Post

On page 46 of the Deschler book it states a quote from Paul Preuss - a clerk from S&L - that amongst other things also , as their own contract , to supply
" a group of contracted manufacturers" the same - (Wekrkzeuge) = 'Tooling' -- to ensure that the Iron Crosses would have the same overall general appearance .
It is not just " some believe ... that S&L provided dies to about 50 other manufacturers ..." but that is what really happened .
..........................

Douglas

You must have misunderstood me. I do not deny this fact.
Because it is a fact! And with facts at a certain level of advancement, just does not argue.
I was only asking for that number. Personally, I'd rather say that it was about 20-30 producers

And when it comes to this unfortunate cross, the frame is not the most important, but the core.
I suggest, however, let's we finish this discussion because it does not lead to anything ...

Regards
Jarek

**Douglas 5** · 01-24-2019, 02:55 PM

Don't give up Jarek .... all things are resolvable !

The contrary ... as many makers obtained cores other manufacturers - I would have to say the frame is equal important in conjunction with the core .
Yes in this case with one core being pedestal type with both having the same inner frame corner flaws -- and the S&L (Rettenmaier) type frame .
It has been a great challenge ... can be with unmarked crosses .

So the frame on this one being the most important feature for me - I started looking for that flaw on a more standard/easier recognizable Brehmer cross .

Took a few days but I found one !
Because of that I have changed me mind about the 2 crosses that started this thread . Brehmer they are !
The marked comparison picture points out why . Now more that points to Brehmer than Rettenmaier or S&L .

So Yubari .... the revised verdict is ... you have 2 Brehmer EK2s .
Sorry it took so long .

Regards , Douglas

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**Yubari** · 01-25-2019, 08:15 AM

Incredible research has been done with these crosses. You have my respect guys.

So if I understand it well, my two crosses are Brehmer core, S&L design frames (but why Rettenmaier)

**boch_62** · 01-25-2019, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Douglas 5 View Post

Don't give up Jarek .... all things are resolvable !

.................

Regards , Douglas

Yes, a little more and we agree that it's Rettenmaier

Regards
Jarek

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