Question about Klessheim and Mint Awards

[Leroy]

Regretably, most people have little, if any, real knowledge about S&L higher grade add-ons to the RK. They hear "S&L??????" and immediately roll their eyes. It is a sort of Pavlovian reflex.

These pieces, as far as I can realistically determine, were never intended to be award pieces, but were most assuredly, from a manufacturing standpoint, "right up the alley" for the company whose in-house designer, Herr Escher, was behind the RK to begin with. Who knows how many other companies also flirted with making some, just to be able to say they did. (Even Deumer, in the same town, advertised Oakleaves for sale.) I wish we had comprehensive catalogs for each of the years 1939 -41 for all decoration manufacturers, just to see who was doing what in the RK field. Unfortunately we don't. I bet we'd be surprised.

In any case, there are enough real differences in S&L types, for the people who study such things, to allow a reasonable degree of confidence to determine period of manufacture. 99.9% of the S&L higher grades seen are postwar made (and some are even very nice indeed). It's the .1% I care about......

[Dietrich Maerz]

For the OL I think the number is naturally larger. Maybe 800-900 pieces?

With all due respect, but that would mean that nearly all awarded OL have survived, or that for each one not surviving one set was found in Klessheim (or at some other place).
That is completely unrealistic. It is very, very tough to even contemplate a number, but for sure it is far less than the award number itself - maybe 1/4 to 1/3 or so.

Regarding pricing one can easily say that rarity in general has nothing to do with price. It is prestige and mystique that makes the price. To expand your example to the other side: If a German Cross in Gold with Diamonds (20 or so were made) demand X amount, the OL should actually demand X/20 - which they do not. Or a Knights Cross to the War Merit Cross should cost far more than 10x than a Knights Cross of the Iron Cross.
Pricing is a very individual and strange thing.

[Leroy]

As a follow-up to the nice "speckled" set posted by Erickn in Post 18, here's another one (I believe from Andreas Thies):

[Erickn]

Another 900 21 set that appeared on site Andreas Thies complete w/ light speckling.

[Erickn]

Another 900 21 set from unknown source

[Unfront]

My S&L Oaks also have speckles on the reverse. On the other hand, my frosted S&L OLS doesn‘t show any speckles.

A question here guys, the S&L Oaks shown here by Alex, are these wartime Oaks or postwar??
Gary

IMO, they are highly likely to be wartime...

Hello, I have a set of these in my collection. (Discussed here: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=698944) unless I am missing something these are post war oaks by StuL, IMO. The tell is the "O" mark on the reverse. That said, these are very well made and from the early production period of the "57er" series of awards. Later made oaks lack the same definition.

[Leroy]

Your set shown in the other thread you mentioned is a very nice set; however, it has the small "o" (as opposed to the large "O" of earlier sets). It also has both the raised flaw next to the vein and the diagonal small "line" flaw between the leaves on the upper left (as you look at it) side. It is not the same as the one posted from Alex and is definitely from the '57 period.

[Unfront]

Thanks for the quick response and the additional information Leroy! Just to clarify, the larger "O" means that it is likely wartime, is that correct?

[Leroy]

Just to clarify, the larger "O" means that it is likely wartime, is that correct?

Not all by itself. At some point, S&L changed the reverse die being used, so you can have a large "O" reverse, but an obverse with things like the "vein flaw". Such pieces are certainly more scarce than the small "o" pieces, but can occasionally be found. One of the great mysteries is exactly when the "vein flaw" developed. Was it beginning on some wartime pieces or did it not show up at all until postwar? In Vern Bowen's book (which unfortunately I don't have in front of me as I write this), there is a photo of an O&S piece given in the mid-1950's (prior, though, to 1957) to the widow of a wartime O&S winner by a squadron mate. That piece has the fully developed "vein flaw". My speculation is that the flaw may have started minimally pre-May, 1945, but that the obverse die, after some period of non-use, was put back into use in a deteriorated and uncleaned condition. The obverse of the mid-1950's piece delivered to the widow looks exactly the nice sets which are to be found with the earliest 1957 pattern RK's. The ones on early "souvenir boards" (one illustrated earlier in this thread) and in the Imperial War Museum collection (from the War Office) have no "vein flaw" at all.

[Alex W.]

Not all by itself. At some point, S&L changed the reverse die being used, so you can have a large "O" reverse, but an obverse with things like the "vein flaw". Such pieces are certainly more scarce than the small "o" pieces, but can occasionally be found. One of the great mysteries is exactly when the "vein flaw" developed. Was it beginning on some wartime pieces or did it not show up at all until postwar? In Vern Bowen's book (which unfortunately I don't have in front of me as I write this), there is a photo of an O&S piece given in the mid-1950's (prior, though, to 1957) to the widow of a wartime O&S winner by a squadron mate. That piece has the fully developed "vein flaw". My speculation is that the flaw may have started minimally pre-May, 1945, but that the obverse die, after some period of non-use, was put back into use in a deteriorated and uncleaned condition. The obverse of the mid-1950's piece delivered to the widow looks exactly the nice sets which are to be found with the earliest 1957 pattern RK's. The ones on early "souvenir boards" (one illustrated earlier in this thread) and in the Imperial War Museum collection (from the War Office) have no "vein flaw" at all.

Gentry, how much rarer would you rate unflawed S&L OLS compared to the oaks ? From my experience the higher grade OLS are even more difficult to find than the already scarce oaks.

[Leroy]

Alex - S&L unflawed O&S are certainly a "step above" the Oakleaves in rarity but quantifying degree is beyond me. My experience has been that you can go for years without seeing a single one. - Best, Gentry

[Alex W.]

Alex - S&L unflawed O&S are certainly a "step above" the Oakleaves in rarity but quantifying degree is beyond me. My experience has been that you can go for years without seeing a single one. - Best, Gentry

Gentry, I was able to take a few quick shots of the unflawed OLS set.

[Alex W.]

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[Alex W.]

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[markus]

Gents -

Has anyone been aware of CCCs in Gold (boxed presentation awards with hook) found in Klessheim castle?

Besides all the KCs, OLs, OL/Swords and Eagle orders, I would have imagined a small stach of cased presentation clasps to be awarded by AH to worthy recipients.

But so far I have neither heard, nor seen any boxed presentation clasp ever been found at Klessheim.

Any thoughts?

Cheers
Markus