Question about Klessheim and Mint Awards

[markus]

Gents --

My question aims specifically to the higher awards of the Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords awards.

Relatively frequently one can find a mint, boxed, set of OL and OLS.

When I see such awards with a spackled surface, I immediately think Castle "Klessheim"-hoard/find.

But where do the mint OL and OLS come from which are absolutely perfect examples with a shiny, frosted, simply a perfect surface? Those must have come from other stocks, right? But from which if one assumes that the Präsidialkanzlei took all with them to Klessheim?

Thanks for your input!

Markus

[Erickn]

Hello,

I read years ago W C Stump purchased remaining Godet stocks from the Kleitmanns up to 20 sets OL & OLS all 900 21. ????? Cannot state what degree of fact. Perhaps others know.

[chrisje110]

My gues is alot of wartime produced Godet factory stock came on the market after the war,

[markus]

I think it's also interesting to see the state of conservation of different examples.

For instance the '21' marked examples:

The widow of Michael Wittmann got a mint '21' replacement set of swords in Oct/Nov 1944 from PKZ. That example is not frosted anymore and is grey.
Then you have the '21' pieces in perfect, frosted condition and then you have the '21'-pieces with the spackled 'Klessheim' surface.

So all '21' marked, unworn, but different conditions/looks to them.

Markus

[Erickn]

'21'-pieces with the spackled 'Klessheim' surface applies to known examples from the Schloss. I have first hand knowledge of a set of each that came straight out of Berlin a month of so after May 45, each w/ the spackled finish. The OLS appeared to have been stepped on. OL were really nice! I agree w/ your statement..."So all '21' marked, unworn, but different conditions/looks to them."

[markus]

'21'-pieces with the spackled 'Klessheim' surface applies to known examples from the Schloss. I have first hand knowledge of a set of each that came straight out of Berlin a month of so after May 45, each w/ the spackled finish. The OLS appeared to have been stepped on. OL were really nice! I agree w/ your statement..."So all '21' marked, unworn, but different conditions/looks to them."

The Klessheim pieces must have been a different Godet production batch/run. Only that way I can explain the oxydation leading to the spackled surface look. Some kind of laquer applied before delivery to the PKZ?

Markus

[Erickn]

I have seen several 900 21 sets where the original lacquer has blackened black over time (I think you have also). I don't recall seeing the blackened finish on 900 L/50's as such, do you?

[markus]

I have seen several 900 21 sets where the original lacquer has blackened black over time (I think you have also). I don't recall seeing the blackened finish on 900 L/50's as such, do you?

Exactly. Same observation here.

[Leroy]

Same "speckled" effect on an S&L set (w/o flaws):

[chrisje110]

Is it some kind of chemical reaction from the ageing frosting ? Very interesting that most OLS sets from Klessheim have this type of "patina"

[Jelle M.]

The speckled appearance is the result of patina developed over unworn and mint swords where the finish is 100% preserved. Worn swords with little finish left get a natural and even silver patina look, dull grey. No speckles, as the patina developed over bare silver. The frosting intact makes them give a speckled appearance.

[Jelle M.]

Leroy, can you please post pictures of the reverse of those swords?
From the picture you post it looks like that s&l piece was made of brass and not silver. If so it's not a comparison of the patina on godet swords.

[markus]

The speckled appearance is the result of patina developed over unworn and mint swords where the finish is 100% preserved. Worn swords with little finish left get a natural and even silver patina look, dull grey. No speckles, as the patina developed over bare silver. The frosting intact makes them give a speckled appearance.

Sounds logical, but why in 2018 do we see 'mint' OL/S with speckles and ones with still perfect silver frosting? Different storage conditions after the war? Humidity, etc?

[schönbeck]

Sounds logical, but why in 2018 do we see 'mint' OL/S with speckles and ones with still perfect silver frosting? Different storage conditions after the war? Humidity, etc?

Different storage conditions is very important to consider.

But maybe the most simple answer is that they have been cleaned.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hello,
I read years ago W C Stump purchased remaining Godet stocks from the Kleitmanns up to 20 sets OL & OLS all 900 21. ????? Cannot state what degree of fact. Perhaps others know.

There has been a lot written about this topic and as far as a check with reality is applicable all of it is nonsense. Gordon Williamson wrote this in his The Iron Cross of 1939 (page 390):
"It should also be noted that the Godet dies did survive the war and were used in the early 1970 to restrike Oakleaves and oakleaves with Swords to go with the 1957 de-nazified Knights Cross as well for sale to collectors. Made from the original dies and carrying the correct "900" silver and maker marks, these sold at $ 20.- for the Oakleaves and $40 for the Oakleaves with Swords and are all but indistinguishable from the original issues. This perhaps goes some way to explaining why such a rare award turns up for sale so frequently."

As he does throughout his book he gives no source for this statement but the most likely one of this unfounded "note" was a former member of this forum who also repeated, no matter whether asked or not and all over the internet, mainly under assumed screen names, that the Schloss Klessheim storage was an invention of an American dealer and that there was only one little safe with three German Crosses in Gold with Diamonds in it. All the other items coming from US-Veterans are fakes and inventions by clever dealers, so his assertion which ( just like Williamson) he never could or would back up with a shred of evidence. The puropse behind that was pure malignity and the goal to harm the hobby (apart from appearing "in the know" by making things up). Why Williamson fell for it is puzzling, but maybe it was just to sensational to pass up.
There was (and unfortunately still is) a sublime stream of misinformation regarding high end items, mainly coming from "collectors" or "experts" who want to damage the financial investment of some. Maybe because they can't afford those items or because they are just plain bad people behind an anonymous keyboard that draw their satisfaction from spreading "alternative facts."