Spanienkreuz without swords- Last purchase

[Norm F]

Has anyone seen Schickle leftover parts used postwar? Being an LDO award doesn't it fit the timeline that S&L if it did get Schickle parts got them wartime?

That type of hollow hinge/pin combo wasn't a "Schickle part" per se, but rather commercially-available hardware that was used extensively by Schickle but also by others, including Mayer and Deschler in other cities. So while commonly seen in Pforzheim and Munich, it's not seen in Lüdenscheid generally. That doesn't mean S&L couldn't have purchased it as well (although nothing to do with Schickle's leftovers since there's no other example of hybrid products between Schickle and S&L like the ones we see between Schickle and Mayer/Zimmermann/F&B for example). It's just that there's no other use of this pin system by S&L other than that Spain Cross, and it seems odd for a company the size of S&L to go outside of their usual suppliers to buy so few of these pins in wartime which are commonly on EK1s in other cities. All of S&L's other known types of hardware can be seen frequently on more than one type of award, so if they used this pin system on that Cross, ideally you'd see corroborating evidence of its use somewhere on another wartime S&L product as well.

After the war would be another matter, when no doubt S&L (and others) could no longer depend upon steady supply lines and stable business arrangements in the first decade, and would likely have to resort to acquiring whatever leftovers one could from whatever source (or make it themselves).

Again, that doesn't rule it out as wartime, but for now we can't help but call that hinge/pin combo atypical for S&L based on what we see of their usage patterns.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Again, that doesn't rule it out as wartime, but for now we can't help but call that hinge/pin combo atypical for S&L based on what we see of their usage patterns.

Thank you.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Brian,

I have no agenda with you. Not sure why you perceive there to be one, simply because I am calling out some inconsistencies with your cross and being "textbook S&L wartime production". I am not the only one who sees that, Norm was kind enough to also state that it is "atypical" for S&L.

Again, I am not saying your cross is fake. Or that it is postwar. Only that the hardware is not what we know of from S&L. In the end, it may turn out to be legitamate wartime variant from S&L with future discoveries. That is certainly fine with me, but from everything we know about S&L at this point, this hardware setup is "atypical".

Tom

p.s., I appreciate whoever cleaned up the thread with various personal attacks on me. If it was Brian, then I thank you Brian for thinking twice about that leaving that crap up you wrote.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Here is another cross like Brians with the same type of pin. Also apparently the same hinge, and same markings.

So this would be a 3rd cross we have now with this type of setup, good news for Brian's side of the fence.

Seems to be some differences in the reverse center, and there is clearly a finish on this cross. Or possibly lacquer.

Tom

[Brian S]

Lacquor would make sense...

I am also curious what was said above about Godet putting some kind of finish on their silver pieces. Trying to wrap my head around that. Stamp out an 800 piece, then... ?

P.S. I also have a bronze with same setup. Obviously though not 800.

[Norm F]

Very interesting. I came across different photos posted by grenadire2307 in 2015 of the same example shown by Tom.

[Norm F]

Lo and behold. Another, from a Hermann Historica auction on Dec 12, 2014.
Description:
"In Silber geprägtes Kreuz des Herstellers Steinhauer & Lück in Lüdenscheid. Die Hakenkreuze der separat eingelöteten Luftwaffenadler zweifach ausgesägt, das Medaillon separat aufgelegt. Seltene Variante mit der punzierten LDO-Kennung "L/16" Steinhauers und in "800"-er Echtsilberausführung. Breite 57,5 mm. Gewicht 35.8 g."

[Brian S]

See that Brian knows his $hit.

[Brian S]

clean one

[Norm F]

detail. Again, looks like there was some frosting applied originally.

[Brian S]

reverse keep all these together

[Brian S]

detail. Again, looks like there was some frosting applied originally.

so frosting is an acid wash not an application or additional layer agree?

those scratches look odd like wire brush cleaning?

[Thomas Durante]

Very interesting, so now we have 4 that match this reverse hardware setup, all marked exactly the same with the same apparent hardware variation. Until now I have never seen S&L using this type of pin, but here we have 4 of them all remarkably similar.

Tom

[Dietrich Maerz]

so frosting is an acid wash not an application or additional layer agree?

No. Acis wash was an early used application on the frames of Knights Crosses. It washed out the cooper content of the 800 silver (the 200) and left a beautiful crystaline surface. That is not the case here!

The other and later method was the application of a "painted" finish. That is was can be seen typically on the 935-4 and on some genuine L/12-marked Oakleves from Juncker.. It is a heavy paste. That is not the case here!

The Oakleaves made by Godet got a final lquer (or something like that). We are in the fortunate position to have examples from Klessheim which were never worn and therefore never cleaned and they were never subject to polluted air (at least not constantly). Those have developed a typical surface of white dots (RK book, page 284). That is not the case here! (but that doesn't mean that there was no initial laquer, wash, or whatever applied)

[Brian S]

Here's a L/16 AND 4 that had a hard life but still... Maybe the hinge block many would have expected.

So Dietrich isn't seeing any application of anything? Which was my observation on mine.