Fair enough.
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Just a thought. Godet was a private purchase piece. Several PLM holders had two PLM's. Maybe one for every day wear and one for official functions and photos.
Having damaged PLM's on the market and non damaged ones on official photographs possibly is not unusual.
Barry Turk sold Major Wulf's PLM group and he had two Godet PLM's . A silver gilt Godet which was damaged and a hollow silver Godet PLM which was in perfect condition. N. CoeComment
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Why the assumption that the guy had the PLM and RK?
Is there no other neck order combination including a PLM that we can think of?
Best
ChrisComment
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Silly unfounded generalization...Originally posted by nhcoejr View Post
At Chris: Yeah the Red Eagle Order with Swords but I know one general who didn't wear more than just the PlM. He had several other neck orders too just left in the box. The PlM was SO important it's only really after WWII that you see the RK worn with the PlM. For a photo a prince or kaiser might glam up his photo with several or all his junk or a field marshal ham it up with as much as possible. But you wouldn't see any of these gentlemen wearing damaged goods.Comment
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Some had foreign awards (Finnish for example), and maybe Bavarian or Saxon?
I would have to disagree, We may not see the details on period Photos but Ferdinand Schörners cross also had enamle damage, a bit less than this, but still.....
I dont think the average officer could afford to bin a PLM just because of damage, and depending on how he wore it, he could hide the damage behind the RK?
Bet
ChrisComment
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I think that the RK KvK was brought up as a WW2 award that would have been worn around the neck as well on a daily basis. One would assume that damage to enamel (if due to wear and not just neglect) would have come from repeated wear.Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post
So IF we are to assume that the damage is from wear (which, as Brian S has pointed out, may be due to factors other than wear), it would most likely be from an award worn quite often on the neck. That could be another imperial award in the interwar period. However, one would assume that you would wear the PLM OVER the other imperial award. While with a Third Reich award, the WW2 medal would have been worn over the PLM, thus producing the damage.
So IF we are to assume wear on the front of the cross, I would think it would be a WW2 era award worn on the neck. Any thought on what those might be beyond an RK and RK KvK?Comment
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Realistically it could also be there from the recipient dropping it.
Schörners PLM has damage to the top left hand side of the cross, and top right hand side of the reverse.... when you see pics of him wearing both it would seem that that is damage caused by the botton right hand side of the RK. the reverse has quite some damage to the middle which is where the top tunic butto was in his pre RK days. When he had the RK he wore it lower down to the right, which would mean the button hit the top right on the reverse.
All supposition of course, but the damage seems concentrated on where the cross was against the button and where the lower right arm of the RK touched it.Comment
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That enamel would take a lot more than occasionally kissing a R.K. to break off....more like dropping onto a marble or stone floor...Comment
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Hi Chris,
Oh, a Toronto boy, eh? You must be about a 30 minute drive away (outside of rush hour).
If a PLM was dropped, wouldn't it stand to reason that one of the points of the PLM would make first contact? And if so, there should be a nice ding on that point, and at least a crack in the enamel in the area.
The damage on mine looks cratered, as if a point or continuous contact with a hard surface (such as a tunic button) was being produced on a regular and consistent basis. I understand that those who wore neck decorations often left that top collar button undone. I'll let you know my findings once I examine the damaged areas with my 30 power magnifier.
Cheers,
Bill from KettlebyComment
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Hi,Originally posted by praubal View Post
that does not need to be... plenty of emanle damage canbe found on awards that are firmly mounted on bars... I assume like many things of the era enamel can have weak spots, and knocked at the wrong angle will cause a flake....Comment
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I agree with Brian on this. Short of finding a photo that directly links this PLM to one in a period picture (matching chip marks) all you can say for 100% certainty is that this is a damaged PLM. (Don't get me wrong I like it and would love to own it/one)
One can speculate all they want on how it was damaged (battlefield, rubbing up against an RK with Oakleaves Swords and Diamonds, careless handling, a kid playing with it after he found it in his dad's stuff etc) but it's all a moot exercise.
One of the reasons I like to collect mint items is that they are just that - mint. No speculation involved as to how it got that way. For the most part, with worn badges there is no guarantee (unless there is provenance/pictures) it got worn/damaged in any particular manner.
Best of luck if you can find that picture.
Gary BLast edited by Gary B; 07-20-2017, 02:18 PM.ANA LM #1201868, OMSA LM #60, OVMS LM #8348Comment
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Hi Bill,Originally posted by sam steele View PostHi Chris,
Oh, a Toronto boy, eh? You must be about a 30 minute drive away (outside of rush hour).
If a PLM was dropped, wouldn't it stand to reason that one of the points of the PLM would make first contact? And if so, there should be a nice ding on that point, and at least a crack in the enamel in the area.
The damage on mine looks cratered, as if a point or continuous contact with a hard surface (such as a tunic button) was being produced on a regular and consistent basis. I understand that those who wore neck decorations often left that top collar button undone. I'll let you know my findings once I examine the damaged areas with my 30 power magnifier.
Cheers,
Bill from Kettleby
Germany at the moment... so waaaay east!
If it were dropped, it would depend how it landed....
There are so many things that could have happened to a medal, but using the Schörner one, I can really see, looking at pre RK and RK photos, the points of contact that could have caused the damage.
Imagine.... you have a PLM... you wear it... at some stage you get a flake, that turns into a chip... I think you have a number of choices...
1) You keep wearing it
2) you get a new one for fancy occasions and use the old one as your regular service one
3) You are super rich, so when there is damage you bin the old one and buy a new one.
When I was in the army I needed my medals maybe 3-4 times a year.... a PLM winner who was in the regular army may have worn his PLM almost every day for 30 years! Imagine the possibilities for damage?
I am going to go with 2) in the above.Comment
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One in the Zeughaus with the same top left damage as Schörner...
http://von-maltitz.de/orden%20pour%20le%20merite.htmComment
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Yes...Originally posted by praubal View Post
Bad packing
Crushed in some transit of some kind
Endless possibilities but not through "real wear".Comment
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