Propaganda iron crosses

[Dr Rod Oakland]

In the superb book, "Iron Time", there is a reference on page 222 to crude iron crosses being dropped over German lines in WWI. The crosses have a "W" and a Christian cross (the sort one might see on a grave stone) in the centre and the names of Belgian and French towns, where the German were accused of committing atrocities, round the edge. Does anyone have any information about this - where, when, how etc.. Also are there any book references to this event.

[David B]

Welcome to the Forum!

Sorry I can't help you, but you may want to try posting this on the Imperial Forum...
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...p?s=&forumid=9

[Dr Rod Oakland]

Thanks

Thanks, I will. Regards.

[George Stimson]

More propaganda EKs

There is a reference in Gordon Williamson's new book The Iron Cross of 1939 to propaganda EKs that were made by the Russians in World War Two. The obverse of these crosses was identical to the "real" EK except that the year was "1941" instead of "1939" to reflect the year that Germany invaded Russia. On the reverse was the year "1813" and the inscription "Fur Raub und Mord" ("For Robbery and Murder"). About 500 of these propaganda crosses were made.

George

[Chris Boonzaier]

Anyone have an idea of what one of those WW1 crosses are worth ?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Sorry, I have still not got the hang of cropping, but here is one in this pic..............

[Bruce Simcox]

That is a real.....

.....rare bird indeed George. I was not aware of the rarity of those Russian 'propaganda crosses' until today.

Back in the early 60's I ran across one in an Oakland pawn shop. The guy behind the counter told me, at that time, that 1941 on the cross stood for year of manufacture. Me being all of 13yrs. old I didn't have a clue otherwise and believed him. It wasn't until they were mentioned awhile back here on the forum did I learn that the one I saw wasn't German at all. I just thought all iron crosses looked cool and had no idea at all of even the different 'grades' of EK's, for that matter. It does not surprise me then that I have never seen another one of those '1941's.'

Thanks for that bit of info. It has helped to settle a question about that cross that I saw so very long ago.

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Bruce

[Eric Stahlhut]

Sorry to be a wet blanket,

but i thought it would be prudent to warn you guys that those 'Stalingrad' EK1s are being refabricated. I ran into a guy who had about a dozen. They looked very good.

I've never seen an original, so I can't compare. The ones that this guy had could very easily fool quite a few people. His huge mistake was his handling of his sales pitch. If I thought he'd had only one, I probably would have went for it, and been that much sorrier for the experience.

Months later I noticed a few of the same examples being sold on eBay (some from Las vegas) and I felt that much better for turning him down.

This was a few years ago.

[keifer kahn]

Beware of a seller Thomas Halpin,who is from las vegas.

regards keifer

[Greg S]

If only 500 hundred were made, any I run across I will assume they are fake unless proved differently. It would be a nice addition to my collection.

[Dr Rod Oakland]

The WWI Iron Cross in Chris' picture is exactly the same as mine in shape. Obviously I can't tell whether the wording etc on it is the same. I was offered a second one recently for about $25.

[Chris Boonzaier]

doesnt anyone think the Stalingrad crosses may be fantasy pieces?
Is there any period reference that mentions them?

I tend to think that this cross business is such an expensive and hoplessly subtle form of propoganda, that I really doubt it was done.

These WW1 crosses you find in South Arica and England and I have had them from folks whose grandmother or whatever had bought them in the war to raise funds.

[Bruce Simcox]

I'm curious.....

.....about just what type of 'period' reference might be needed to verify the existence of what may or may not have been a 'propaganda piece', or perhaps what type of modern reference (20th century, after WWII) for verification as a fantasy piece. I don't think that the Reich would've been too keen to acknowledge their existence, in any case. I will take a guess and venture that perhaps somewhere in the X-USSR there may be evidence of these propaganda pieces, in the voluminous WWII archives that may still survive there, because I doubt if Klietmann or Doehle would have cataloged or referenced them.

I do know, that from personal experience, I actually had my hands on one. But being as I was, after all, 13 and the year was 1961, all that I clearly remember is the year on the cross I handled as undoubtedly being '1941.' Add to that what the counterman had said, a pretty powerful impression was left on me. Even then it was not the first EK I had ever seen, just the first (and last) with that '1941' date on it. As I recall it was very nice looking. The guy wanted $10 for it, but that was something that my father didn't want brought into the house, you see. He forbade ANYTHING with a swastika on it plus, at that time, he was still bigger than I, as well as the head of the household. I did have the cash to buy it, but I didn't feel like getting a whipping plus losing a $10 cross to boot.

I suppose that it could have been a 'fantasy piece,' but I can say for certain that another one never showed up when I revisted that particular establishment, or the other downtown Oakland pawn shops. But who knows? I just don't think that there were boxloads of them floating about in the Bay Area either. I did see plenty of '1939' EK's after that and by the time my Dad finally softened his stance about the swastika, when I reached 16, I tried to find another of those '1941's', but to no avail. I had no luck finding anyone who had one, or much less seen one, because I did look and ask....a lot.

I suppose then, that without proper 'provenance,' we'll just have to write these '1941's' up as 'fantasy pieces' for now. Either way, propaganda or fantasy, it was an interesting cross. I, for one, would appreciate the unearthing of the true history behind these pieces.

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Bruce

[coastie]

Sorry, I have still not got the hang of cropping, but here is one in this pic..............

Chris what is the oval eagle medal?

[Jim Baker]

It would seem to me that for the cost involved in making these "1941" pieces, the Russians would have made more than 500. And I would imagine other likely sites to distribute them, perhaps Linengrad? Just a thought.