Sedlatzek RKs?

[Leroy]

All Sedlatzek-Crosses, that I have seen, have the same rising fault line on the 6 `clock arm (see image). Has the Souval Cross with the dipping 3 also this error ?
excuse my English. Andreas

I see the 'line' on my "Sedlatzeks", but do not see it on the Souvals (including the early one with the "Sedlatzek crater").

[Kecon]

I can see the correlation between the Sedlatzek and the Souval crosses now. Thanks to Leroy and many who added to this thread. I'm a bit disappointed with what I know now. Didn't think I had another Souval cross.

Ken

[Leroy]

Why be disappointed? We still don't know what it is, exactly, only that there is a strong link to Souval. Herr Umlauff merely said that the firm was not officially authorized to produce the RK, not that it never did in pre-LDO days. Why would he talk about a piece which represented the firm's failure to produce a cross which wasn't good enough, in terms of quality, to be accepted? He had plenty of other pieces which were good enough.

[chrisje110]

We will probably never know the truth of the pre LDO Knights Crosses, that doesnt make them less interesting

The unknown can have its charm

[Leroy]

Here's another piece of totally uncertain origin. If you were to look at wartime photos of the typical quality we see, you'd probably think it was a Juncker. Weitze is selling one now as a "quality reproduction" from the 1980's for 1500 Euros (!). When I asked him at a show how he knew what it was or where it came from, his only answer was that we knew, after 70 years, all the real makers. It is true that we recognize today (and for valid reasons) Juncker, S&L, Godet/Zimmermann, Schickle, "3/4 ring" and K&Q, but we also know that before March, 1941, anybody could make anything and that complaints about unregulated quality were rampant.

Pre-March, 1941 is the "black hole" of RK collecting.

[Leroy]

Here's a very early Juncker with unmarked neusilber frame, zinc core and original brass suspension loop. (A piece sold as a reproduction...but not). If you hold it at the right angle, you can see light passing through the frame.

[sdesember]

The beadings on the Weitze's supposed 80's cross are just so smooth overall. Either the frame was stamped with a very worn die or that the bridging flaws were smoothed over in the working die. I like the Oese look, it looks very Juncker-ish as you mentioned. There's also that remaining unfinished portion inside the eyelet reminiscing of the S&L crosses. The dates look to be very shallowly stamped, too. If you could access Weitze's site, the 1813 date on the reverse looks to be double strucked.

[blind pew]

How do you distinguish between 75 year old patina (genuine) and 65 year old patina (post-war)?

You can't- patina can be faked by suspending a cross in a coffee can with sulpher and a little water in a short period of time. However, the clear modern fakes have usually done a poor job of faking aging and wear.

No physicial evidence is definitive; however an accumulation of "positive" physical evidence would lead one to closer to a conclusion. After all, accepting that all of the makers of the RK are "wartime" is a result of physical evidence. That evidence for the accepted makers is very, very strong.

Perhaps further physical evidence would lend positive information to suggesting that the Sedlatzek (sp?) cross is wartime. Such information, of course, would not be definitive, but would certainly be a positive.

[Tony T-S]

Again I say a great thread. It makes me appreciate my Souval even more. Lots of mysteries to solve yet around all these.

[Alex W.]

Interesting. I'll check mine when I get home tonight. Alex, I know you have more than anyone, so hopefully you can check earlier!

Just came around to check on my earliest post war Souval RK (unmagnetic core). Seems there is something on the 6'o clock area.

[Tom B]

If I was gonna spend any big bucks it sure would be only on the "known" pre 45 RK's !!!!

[tony james]

I have tried for almost 2 hours to do just that and have taken dozens of digital photos, but simply cannot replicate the exact angles or lighting (and certainly not the
exact "finish" on the cross in the photo, as neither of the crosses I am using are, of course, in the exact same condition as the one in the photo - and that matters in terms of reflection, shadow, etc.).

Surely someone else here will have examples of both types and is a more talented photographer than me.

I will say, without prejudice to either type (and this was surprising to me): I could not get a single shot of the K&Q which made the ring appear to "dip" into the frame to the degree as appears in the photo.

Leroy
i had time today to experiment taking fotos of a sedlatzek both indoors and out for different. lighting and reflection which i found out are critical in the outcome of the visual effects. the cross i used had a fairly shiny frame which changed the dipping ring look when photographed in different lighting , angel and distance . in some of the fotos the dipping ring is clear but in others its hard to detect or it seems to disappear completely looking like the ring sets on top of the frame .maybe this is a possible explanation for the bockhoff fotos .also it seems that the majority of sedlatzeks shown have fairly tarnished frames and rust on the cores despite being plated which one would think would help prevent it.maybe they were stored away during the war .

[tystgaard]

Nice Cross

Very nice Cross. Is it the one from Manions?, that sold some years back under reproductions. Very lovely cross, the buyer was very lucky.

BR
Nicolai

Here's a very early Juncker with unmarked neusilber frame, zinc core and original brass suspension loop. (A piece sold as a reproduction...but not). If you hold it at the right angle, you can see light passing through the frame.

[Leroy]

If I was gonna spend any big bucks it sure would be only on the "known" pre 45 RK's !!!!

Good philosophy. I would never advise anyone to spend large sums on a cross they weren't sure about, after research and intense study. Always get the "recognized" ones first , study them, and then follow your "gut instincts" once you have done that (assuming in the first place you actually possess decent instincts and "feel").

On a separate note, in looking at this photo I posted earlier of a postwar Souval, I think there may be a "line flaw" on the bottom 6 o'clock arm, but am not sure if it's in the same position as the one on the "Sedlatzek".

[Leroy]

Very nice Cross. Is it the one from Manions?, that sold some years back under reproductions. Very lovely cross, the buyer was very lucky.

BR
Nicolai

Same one (and what was crazy was that I met a person later who had the original ribbon from that cross, which was not on it in the sale - small world).