Kc l/58

[Douglas 5]

Wow ... You were quit lucky then Ron to meet the old fellow .

I lived in Vienna late 74 to mid 79 . I was at that same shop a few times . Wish my visits would have been as good as yours .
A younger guy was running the store then ( late 40s maybe ) - and I got ripped off royaly with almost all fakes ... with assurances that everything was guarantied original .
A Navy patch and a belt were the only original 2 pieces . I moved to Canada in 1980 and years later only found out that I was taken . I would have beaten the crap out of him !

Ron ... were you by chance in Munich in 74 ?

Douglas

[Ron C.]

Wow ... You were quit lucky then Ron to meet the old fellow .

I lived in Vienna late 74 to mid 79 . I was at that same shop a few times . Wish my visits would have been as good as yours .
A younger guy was running the store then ( late 40s maybe ) - and I got ripped off royaly with almost all fakes ... with assurances that everything was guarantied original .
.............. were you by chance in Munich in 74 ?

Douglas

Douglas,

I guess I was lucky. He must have passed or retired soon after I was there. I saw a few other people down in the retail area (most didn't seem very nice and seemed a little nervous about talking with me). I finally got them to call up to him on the phone. A little window opened, I think sliding, and closed, and they said I could go up. I guess they became very different, because Herr Umlauf made no claims anything was "original".

I was in Munich for a little while on one of my few trips, when I could get away; maybe it was around 1974 (don't remember exactly). Bad Kreuznach and the 8th ID was a long haul from Munich, and I didn't get much leave while in Germany so I mostly went on shorter trips to scrounge for stuff on Saturday......Mainz, Frankfurt, Kassel and the like. Much of my time I was a Defense Counsel, and highly requested; so if someone got me they wouldn't agree to let me go unless the government agreed to wait until I got back to go to trial. I had about an overall acquittal rate of near 45% (it would have been better but the government cheated.......they gave me all guilty people to defend ). I could go when I was a prosecutor, except the government didn't like for me to go. Why? I had a 100% conviction rate......never lose one.

I didn't really get to look around Munich much, I was on the way to Berchtesgaden. My computer crashed a few months ago, but I had my photos on a couple of external hard drives; however, we had a man and wife helping do things here (he left recently owing me money and she stuck my stuff who knows where......including the hard drives, so I can't really show pictures right now). When I get to the point I can walk down or up stairs maybe I can find them.

My wife can't either, she fell and broke her ankle in 4 places.

Sorry, like I have said before, I ramble a bit since the stroke that retired me in 2009.

Ron

[Alex W.]

If you had ever been to the "trophy shop" called Rudolph Souval K.G. at Siebensterngasse, Wien, and actually got to go up to the "special room" and met Herr Umlauf (the old gray haired gentleman who was "Rudolph Souval") (he actually wasn't but he was the man who ran it and called all the shots") you might not be so dismissive of "Souval". He never tried to pass off the products are "real". Instead that was done by collectors and mostly dealers, who were trying to fleece other gullible less experienced collectors. He told everyone they were replicas, and not exact ones at that.......he could have made (and did sometimes) much better ones, but the cost would have been much higher. He was very helpful and spent a long time talking with me and showing me around. I don't guess you would believe that one of the reasons he made things was to provide to the prior servicemen a cheap means of having a "representative" for the medal or badge that was lost to them during the war......one that looked somewhat like the one from the time. I was never back there after the mid-70s, and never even corresponded with him, so I know nothing about the place or him after that. However, since he was an older man when I was there, I assume he passed on some time ago since that was 1973 or 74 (may around 43 years ago....which would likely make him well over 100 now), and I do not know what happened there after him. I did bring one thing back from my visit there, a RK with swords marked L/58, which I have posted on the forum, and it is not for sale............when I look at it, I remember my visit with Herr Umlauf.

Ron

Wonderful ! Thanks for sharing that great memory Ron.
In fact this post should be posted in the "post war" section as well, as some there have trouble understanding what Souval was all about.

Best regards,
Alex

[Ludwig]

If you had ever been to the "trophy shop" called Rudolph Souval K.G. at Siebensterngasse, Wien, and actually got to go up to the "special room" and met Herr Umlauf (the old gray haired gentleman who was "Rudolph Souval") (he actually wasn't but he was the man who ran it and called all the shots") you might not be so dismissive of "Souval". He never tried to pass off the products are "real". Instead that was done by collectors and mostly dealers, who were trying to fleece other gullible less experienced collectors. He told everyone they were replicas, and not exact ones at that.......he could have made (and did sometimes) much better ones, but the cost would have been much higher. He was very helpful and spent a long time talking with me and showing me around. I don't guess you would believe that one of the reasons he made things was to provide to the prior servicemen a cheap means of having a "representative" for the medal or badge that was lost to them during the war......one that looked somewhat like the one from the time. I was never back there after the mid-70s, and never even corresponded with him, so I know nothing about the place or him after that. However, since he was an older man when I was there, I assume he passed on some time ago since that was 1973 or 74 (may around 43 years ago....which would likely make him well over 100 now), and I do not know what happened there after him. I did bring one thing back from my visit there, a RK with swords marked L/58, which I have posted on the forum, and it is not for sale............when I look at it, I remember my visit with Herr Umlauf.

Ron

I was at the Siebensterngasse in the mid 80´s. The Souval shop was still there, but it was closed that week. It was summer. Could see a lot of III. Reich fakes through the window though.

[chrisje110]

I have heard the story's firsthand about huge stocks of leftover WARTIME product being sold by Souval. I have a family member who told me about his visits to the Souval shop, Herr Umlauf was very proud to provide veterans with his products ! There was never any intention to decieve anyone.

[Ron C.]

I have heard the story's firsthand about huge stocks of leftover WARTIME product being sold by Souval...........................Herr Umlauf was very proud to provide veterans with his products ! There was never any intention to decieve anyone.

Absolutely, in fact during my visit there was one older TR vet came up and was looking around. He had "the look" as he was looking at the things. He looked proud and not like a bum, but still somewhat like say "a person of lessor means". In other words, he didn't probably have a lot of money to waste on things he didn't need to live. Herr Umlauf went to him and quietly talked with him for a while, then handed him, as I remember I think, an EK2, a "frozen meat medal", and I think a wound badge and I believe an IAB. He refused to take anything in payment for the things. The man thanked him graciously, and carefully "packed" the things away, thanked him again and quietly left with a look that was pleased and almost a slight smile...maybe. I can't say that I actually saw a tear, but at least it looked a little bit like one was near. The whole encounter was somewhat impressive, which of course why it stuck with me and I can remember it today. I have lost a lot of things from my past due to the stroke....but not that.

Herr Umlauf went on to show me the machines, dies, pins and catches etc., and explained why the things they made at that time were even not up to the quality they were right after the war. The old dies finally gave out and had to be replaced, and the quality of the new ones were not as good, showing me what he meant. The material was lessor also as he said with the modern stuff, i.e. the catches were stamped out and not as good as the old stuff; however, since he was not producing things to "fake people out".....but just making a representative thing, mostly for vets, he opted to keep the cost down for them. I have no idea who Rudolph Souval was if the company was named for the original owner, or when he existed; however, when I was there (only the one visit) Herr Umlauf was in effect Rudolph Souval so to speak, and I can assure you for whatever that is worth.....Herr Umlauf did not deserve the disrespect sometimes show Rudolph Souval on the forum and elsewhere. That is well earned by the dealers and etc. who tried to pass his things along with claims about them that he never made.

Now, if you were demanding of a much higher quality representation of the medals, he could and would make them for you. There was a quite large and heavy safe, or two, present. He showed me those too. They were pretty well full of the better representations, still not described by him as original though. Such things as various badges and medals and awards with diamonds not just brillianten. German Orders (maybe some now in collections as "originals"), Knight's Crosses, DKs, and a lot of others; however, those things were actually priced higher than some of the originals available in the 70s.........and who the hell would want to buy a RK with old swords when almost all knew there was only one awarded and also who still had it! He never tried to tell anyone his things were "original"........but others sure did.

I don't know what Rudolph Souval did after Herr Umlauf, maybe they went totally greedy and tried to pass things as original (like they did with Douglas).......but that was not Herr Umlauf....and for them.....they can burn in Hell, but not the old man.

Sorry again.....but like I said.....I ramble a bit since the stroke; however, maybe not. After all I was a lawyer and it is well know sometimes we talk too much and you can't shut us up......occupational hazard.

Ron

[ChrisJ]

Very interesting Ron. Thank you.

My recollections and experiences of those early times were that it took several years of searching to actually see a genuine RK, let alone have the opportunity to purchase one... so judging what was real or not was almost impossible. As a result most of us around then lost quite a bit of money being easy targets for any less than honest dealers. Looking back, the first two RK's I purchased from a dealer were both fakes, but I sold them on to dealers later with no loss.... so perhaps many of them knew only marginally more than we did ! How things change.

Regards
Chris

[Ron C.]

Souval swords device I got when I visited Herr Umlauf

I ran onto this a couple of nights ago. I still don't have my photography stuff set up yet, so please excuse the poor photos. They were taken handheld with a little Nikon Coolpix S9300. You can't really see the L/58 very clearly, but it is there. I got this device on my visit to the "upper room" along with the KC I posted in another post.

Ron

[Douglas 5]

Thanks for showing the Oaks w S ..... interesting they are marked L/58 .
A LDO marking post war of course was not required -- an old habit of marking private purchase pieces .
This definitely fits your recollection of what Mr. Umlauf and his intentions were . Wish I had been there earlier to meet him .
I have the old receipt some where still .

Douglas