Juncker variations?

[Douglas 5]

Hi Jarek :
The long flaw is a product off of the Juncker church bead master . The matching small flaws on both frame types have the same origin and are copied every time a working die is made .
Now as a guess the master that is cracking indeed may have been sold to Küst or some one else . The new positive die half can be touched up - removing the 3 flaws
( excess metal is easier to remove than to fill in some thing ) ... all this befor the die is hardend . The long flaw could not be improved any .

Douglas

[boch_62]

Hi Jarek :
The long flaw is a product off of the Juncker church bead master . The matching small flaws on both frame types have the same origin and are copied every time a working die is made .
Now as a guess the master that is cracking indeed may have been sold to Küst or some one else . The new positive die half can be touched up - removing the 3 flaws
( excess metal is easier to remove than to fill in some thing ) ... all this befor the die is hardend . The long flaw could not be improved any .

Douglas

Hi Douglas,
If I understood well You are accepted new name for Long Flaw Frame, Lug Variant and Small Frame ... - that we have to deal with crosses Unknown maker from Berlin associated with JUNCKER (strictly)
And we have a consensus

Best Regards
Jarek

[Douglas 5]

Well Jarek I do not accept the new name for the long flaw . It is a Juncker product of the 3 flaw frame master .
Do to the long bad crack its quality most likely was below Juncker standards - so the working die may have been just given , traded or sold to some one in Berlin maybe to try there luck with it .
Lug Variant and Small Frame = Unknown maker associated some how with Juncker is as far as I would go .
I also would say that the Gablonz made and the test/trial frame Juncker is missing from the list .

Douglas

[sanya13]

Hí Guys
now then what is the good list?
long flaw frame made Juncker and only small frame made unknown maker ?

[boch_62]

Well Jarek I do not accept the new name for the long flaw . It is a Juncker product of the 3 flaw frame master .
Do to the long bad crack its quality most likely was below Juncker standards - so the working die may have been just given , traded or sold to some one in Berlin maybe to try there luck with it ...

Douglas

Hi Douglas,
I understand and I do not understand simultaneously
I understand that you say that the cross Long Flaw Frame has a frame-type "3-flaw" as Juncker's crunch bead frame with 3-flaw.
I understand o.k.?
If so, I disagree with that.
I have 2 crosses Long Flaw Frame and quite a large database of images, but none of these crosses Long Flaw Frame does not have the typical disadvantages of 3-flaw as pictured below ...

Jarek

[Dansson]

Wow, I am little surprised how many opinions we have about the official variation list. But I (of course everyone else that reads this thread says a own silent thanks to you all) thank you all for your time and patience to share the knowledge you have.

Daniel.

[streptile]

In my opinion this is the correct list:

1. WFS frame (Wide Frame Schinkel) + non magnetic WFS core
2. WFS frame + magnetic WFS core
3. crunch bead frame + non magnetic WFS core
4. crunch bead frame + magnetic Teardrop “9” core (so called: Full Juncker)
5. crunch bead frame + magnetic W&L core
6. crunch bead frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic Teardrop “9” core
7. crunch bead frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
8. common L/12 frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
9. common L/12 frame, unmarked + magnetic L/12-core
10. Full W&L cross (frame, core), marked L/12

As for the Long-flaw and the Small-frame, I believe they're probably not made by Juncker, but no definitive proof of their maker exists either way, so it's all just theorizing at this moment.

The main reasons I doubt Juncker made them are:

Small-frame: these do not share Juncker's shape. All confirmed Juncker EKs share the same shape. Also, no EK1s are known with this frame. Juncker was licensed to make all four classes of the Iron Cross and in the case of all their confirmed EK2s, we also see EK1s using the same frame, often marked L/12.

Long-flaw: this cross has the same shape as other Junckers but we don't see any EK1s with this frame. Also the Long-flaw uses more than one core that is not a Juncker type. Also the Long-flaw is almost certainly the same maker as the Lug, and both Long-flaw and Lug are known marked "Z," an unknown and illogical mark for Juncker.

[streptile]

How would you arrange the Junckers if it would be according rarity?

That's an interesting question. I would say this, with no. 1 being the rarest and 10 being the most common:

1. crunch bead frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic Teardrop “9” core
2. WFS frame + magnetic WFS core
3. crunch bead frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
4. Full W&L cross (frame, core), marked L/12
5. common L/12 frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
6. common L/12 frame, unmarked + magnetic L/12-core
7. crunch bead frame + non magnetic WFS core
8. WFS frame (Wide Frame Schinkel) + non magnetic WFS core
9. crunch bead frame + magnetic W&L core
10. crunch bead frame + magnetic Teardrop “9” core (so called: Full Juncker)

These lists will depend a lot on a person's own experience with what they've seen. Again, these are EK2s only.

[boch_62]

That's an interesting question. I would say this, with no. 1 being the rarest and 10 being the most common:

1. crunch bead frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic Teardrop “9” core
2. WFS frame + magnetic WFS core
3. crunch bead frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
4. Full W&L cross (frame, core), marked L/12
5. common L/12 frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
6. common L/12 frame, unmarked + magnetic L/12-core
7. crunch bead frame + non magnetic WFS core
8. WFS frame (Wide Frame Schinkel) + non magnetic WFS core
9. crunch bead frame + magnetic W&L core
10. crunch bead frame + magnetic Teardrop “9” core (so called: Full Juncker)

These lists will depend a lot on a person's own experience with what they've seen. Again, these are EK2s only.

Very cool juxtaposition rarity. Generally, I agree, but to position 2. I would give Full W&L marked L/12 on ring, the other unchanged - of course IMO

Regards
Jarek

[streptile]

Very cool juxtaposition rarity. Generally, I agree, but to position 2. I would give Full W&L marked L/12 on ring, the other unchanged.

Hi Jarek,

I don't disagree. In fact, for the first four on the rarity list, I have only ever seen one of each. So it's difficult to say which is rarer than the other.

[Dansson]

Thank you once more Trevor!
So when there are so many rare variations of the Juncker, it is probably close to impossible to get them all? It will probably my goal in this collecting.

I have only got this "WFS frame + non magnetic WFS core ", so if you feel that you have any "extra" junckers in your collections, please contact me gentlemen.

Daniel.

[Douglas 5]

Yes many variations Daniel .... you may get 2/3 of them and the rest will be a real struggle to get - if at all .
Between the hand full of collectors trying to get all Juncker variations - probably right now only one 'complete' set could be put together ?
Once I am done with the 3 flaw frame most will be sold again .... will be a while yet .

Jarek ... have not forgotten about you and your question ... I know -- how can one frame have the flaw and the other frame suddenly does not and still be from the same source ?
It is in how the working die is made . There is one stage in the working die production where the positive die half is freshly made and still soft .
Carl Wild of Hamburg mentions the die making process fairly well which I translated that shows the production sequence and surprisingly it is not quit the way you would think it would have been done .
Alterations and 'touch ups' can only be done at this time point before that die half is permanently hardened .
In the case of the long flaw frame the Juncker 3 frame chips were filed completely off on this working/production die -- and having 2 long flaw frames I would go as far to say the long flaw crown was leveled of to the same bead height as well .
The surface of the long flaw is smooth and in contrast to that the (long) frame flaws we see on S&Ls are raised from the beading and rough . ... even though they are progressionary flaws they have the expected - uneven surface appearance .
Do these long flaw frames have other matching bead flaws with the 3 flaw frame -- yes . For this to be possible these flaws have to be on the master die and are copied to each working die .
The comparison of the frames below show the same bead features and the starting of the long flaw on the Juncker on the right .
This shows the origin of the long flaw die . It is in my opinion that do to internal quality control this die was never used by Juncker - but most likely finished the die for some one else .... like Paul Küst or ... ? This would also account for there not being any EK1s with that frame .
As there are more than one 3 flaw production die (3-4?) not every Juncker 3 flaw frame will show the starting cracks of the long flaw .

At the bottom is the translated full or expanded flow chart to the 107 die production . The diagram they used is very condensed and does not show all the production stages .

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

For those interested just posted the Long Flaw variations .

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=803259

Douglas

[boch_62]

Thanks Douglas!
Now, I understand your line of thinking and reasoning. I admit that this is a way of explain for me to the adoption and acceptance

As described by You, the production process of "working die", the first defect may arise during the production of "half positive design die" (I call her "mother die") - here comes the first hardening ... and then the defect can move on any of the working dies (which are the "children of this mother die") - so this is a family trait (common) of the mother die.

But this is not the end ... In addition, at each stage of hardening next, each half of the working die ("children") can generate additional defects, but specific to a particular individual working die (and hence for a particular maker of the cross).

For us it is important to be able to (and have the possibility) compare the effects of the work of these working die (crosses) and draw appropriate conclusions.
I think that thanks to your great work, it will be a little easier, but still not easy.

Jarek

[Douglas 5]

Yes Jarek .... a picture is worth a thousand words . As a lot is involved with these dies - there is no simple or quick answer .
The reason for the chart ....... so any person can work through the sequence in the die production and where and what type of flaw can develop !
The production process is not my interpretation ... I only translated the procedure Carl Wild had used . .. and probably generally used by other manufacturers also .
There are more interesting things to come yet .

Douglas