Deumer catalog RK

[Andreas Klein]

Meanwhile there's the separate and harder to define connection between Deumer and Schickle - fairly convincing later on in the '57 era but harder to nail down in wartime.

Best regards,
---Norm

What kind of connection do we have between Deumer and Schickle in the '57 era?

[Andreas Klein]

Norm,

I was refering to this post. It makes perfectly sense to me and is even supported by factual evidence.

Dietrich

Why does it makes perfect sense that Zimmermann was the supporter? Deumer was able to do their own crosses and when Deumer's manager was involved in the business of Godet too why should Godet buy stuff from someone else which they could get from Deumer just as well?

And where is the evidence that Godet really bought parts from Zimmermann? A similiar looking design of the crosses can be caused by the same tools shared by both firms.

[Matthieu]

What kind of connection do we have between Deumer and Schickle in the '57 era?

This was published in an "Das Ritterkreuz" magazine in January 1958.
The top 57er KC's are clearly Schickle, the swastika cored on in the middle St&L.
Can anyone identify the maker for the other badges ( EK1/EK2 ) ?

Mathijs

[Dietrich Maerz]

Why does it makes perfect sense that Zimmermann was the supporter? Deumer was able to do their own crosses and when Deumer's manager was involved in the business of Godet too why should Godet buy stuff from someone else which they could get from Deumer just as well?

And where is the evidence that Godet really bought parts from Zimmermann? A similiar looking design of the crosses can be caused by the same tools shared by both firms.

Andreas, do yourself a favor and study the Godet Knights Cross and the one as labelled as Deumer in the Lüdenscheid Museum. If you do that you will find out that the they are 100% identical to Zimmermann. They are not similar looking as you suggest.

Dietrich

PS: The same applies, by the way, to a EK1 from Godet and Zimmermann, ask your author.

[Norm F]

What kind of connection do we have between Deumer and Schickle in the '57 era?

Hi Andreas,

I'll have to defer to the '57 guys for the details but to paraphrase I believe it's a combination of circumstantial and forensic evidence (your favourite ):
1) Deumer had experience in RK assembly in wartime
2) Deumer is documented to supply a wide range of '57s in the early '57 era and distributed price lists. The list with the RK is not yet found but a later supplement (#7) with the RK mini was posted.
3) The '57 RKs with "Schickle" frames show cores and a finish that match the production of the Deumer-attributed EKs, different from S&L's production.

But admittedly that doesn't prove that Deumer assembled Schickle crosses in wartime. There are other precedents where Deumer's '57 production was of different design from their wartime production (like the Minesweeper). But then that Shropshire cross came along to confuse the matter...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

Dietrich, that's no answer to my question.

If Godet and Zimmermann were supplied with the same tools for the crosses than they produce identical crosses.

I still haven't seen anything for the story that Godet had been a retail seller of Zimmermann and that was my question.

[Dietrich Maerz]

For me (and a lot of other people including your author) it is clear that Godet got the parts from C.F. Zimmermann. And that the "Deumer Cross" in Lüdenscheid is also a Zimmeramnn.

If you want to promote the idea that both (actually three, don't forget Foerster & Barth) got a 100% identical dies from a third party or got the parts from a third party or even got the complete manufactured crosses from a third party, that is your private theory and there is nothing I can say.

It makes no difference to me and it makes no difference to the collectors. As long as we are able to identify who is who and what is what, it is completely inconsequential who made what. We are not asigning maker names to unmarked crosses, the makers are known since a very long time! The moment you show me a "3" marked Knights Cross, we have a topic to discuss.

Dietrich


PS: Nobody said that Godet was a retail seller for Zimmermann. Godet got parts from Zimmermann. As you might know , there are differences between the Godet and the Zimmermann despite identical parts.

[Andreas Klein]

Godet got parts from Zimmermann.

Can you support this statement with anything?

I have no idea what you want to achieve with this line of argumentation,

If i have a wartime sales catalog picturing a knights cross with a sales price than the firm which publishs this catalog is imo a possible legit knights cross producer and i can't sweep it under the carpet with a so called "Zimmermann" cross in the museum.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Andreas,

That the Godet Knights Cross and the Zimmermann Knights Crosses are (nearly) identical is not something I made up in the last 24 hours. You can read this in nearly all publications about the Knights Cross and microscopic evidence supports this. Same applies to a EK1 model.

So, in light of all this evidence I ask you: what evidence do you have that this was not so?

The photo or picture in a war time catalog does not necessarily mean that the publishing company made the pictured decoration on its own. There are numerous cases for this. On the field of Iron Cross Assmann comes to mind.

In addition, neither I nor anybody else said that Deumer was not a legitimate Knights Cross maker, I kindly refer you to my post #2, which reflects the opinion of the majority of RK collectors. There is no "sweeping under the carpet" here, just laying out how it could have been.

By the way, the whole topic of Deumer and Knights Crosses was presented in a RK book (2007) and later on in a magazine in 2012 - nothing new at all!

Dietrich

[Andreas Klein]

Andreas,

That the Godet Knights Cross and the Zimmermann Knights Crosses are (nearly) identical is not something I made up in the last 24 hours. You can read this in nearly all publications about the Knights Cross and microscopic evidence supports this. Same applies to a EK1 model.

Dietrich, i totally agree that certain Godet and Zimmermann stuff are nearly identical but i have my doubts that this is caused by the fact that Godet was supplied by Zimmermann with parts or half finished crossed and only did the final soldering.

So, in light of all this evidence I ask you: what evidence do you have that this was not so?

The point that this evidence can't be backed up. There is a list of the year 1940 by Mr. Doehle naming all firms which are active producers of the iron cross and the higher parts. Here you will find Gebrüder Godet, Berlin on position #2 of the maker list directly after C. E. Juncker, Berlin while you won't find Zimmermann, Pforzheim on the the same list.

To me a clear sign that:

- Godet was an active producer of the iron cross familiy
- that Godet started this before Zimmermann did it

So all at all i see no support for the story that Godet got parts from Zimmermann. Seems to be more likely that Zimmermann got support - whatever this means - from Godet when they started later on.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Andreas,

I know that I am very stubborn but I am not doing this to be obnoxious. But it is really incorrect when you say "nearly identical" without clarifying. I should have done that earlier, too. So here it is: The frames are 100% identical and this is down to microscopic features. The "nearly" refers to the paint. And again, very kindly and please don't get this wrong: there is 100% solid evidence that the "Deumer Cross" in Lüdenscheid is a Zimmermann and also 100% evidence that the Godet parts are 100% Zimmermann. Just as the L/21 is 100% Zimmermann.

When I mentioned earlier in this thread that C.F. Zimmermann was not on the Sept. 41 list of suppliers of orders and medals to the PKZ, you answered this:

C.F. Zimmermann was allready mentioned and declared as officiial supplier by the PKZ on the list from 11.05.1940.

Now you say the opposite. Just to clarify: C.F. Zimmermann was not on that list, just as you say now. And that Zimmermann was not on the list as a supplier to the PKZ has no bearing on being a sub-supplier or not. You always tell us about the example of companies buying tools from known or unknown tool makers. Were they approved by the PKZ? No! The products of the companies were approved, not the sub-suppliers. Godet later on used frames from B.H. Meyer and I am sure you find such things on the field of the Wound Bdage also.

And as already mentioned earlier, Zimmermann is also not on the list of September 1941 of direct suppliers of orders and medals to the PKZ, but at that time produced already the DK in Gold, marked L/52. And as you know, every recipient of an LDO number had to be approved by Dr. Doehle.

But as I said earlier: it does not matter. As long as we are able to identify the originality of the crosses it is fine and it doesn't matter whether they are marked for Godet or L/52 or "20" or not at all. The frames give the maker away. The topic now has shifted somewhat from "Deumer" to "Zimmermann/Godet" and to bring it back on track it should be stated again: Deumer is not "swept under the carpet" as a supplier of Knights Crosses. The overall consesus at this point in time is that they made the 3/4 Ring Knights Cross.

[Leroy]

...The overall consesus at this point in time is that they made the 3/4 Ring Knights Cross.

Again: What, please, is the solid proof for this? That might be the "overall consensus" of "advanced German collectors", but that really tells us nothing at all.

If Deumer made the 3/4 ring, that would be a fine thing to know for certain, but has something surfaced lately to solidify this?

[streptile]

I still haven't seen anything for the story that Godet had been a retail seller of Zimmermann and that was my question.

Hi Andreas,

The evidence is very clear that Gebr. Godet bought EKs, RKs, oakleaves, Red Cross decorations, and even German Eagle Orders from C.F. Zimmermann. This has been discussed many times but here is a précis of the evidence:

• EKs and RKs are identical between G.G. and C.F.Z.
• G.G.'s 21 and [L/50] stamps are nearly identical to C.F.Z.'s 20 and [L/52] stamps (see below).
• When G.G. EKs were ordered from a different company (e.g. B.H. Mayer), the EKs came stamped with an L/50 that resembled Mayer's L/18 (see below)

[streptile]

(Continued)

• G.G.'s famous decorations have been found in confirmed C.F.Z. "Fire Lots" in a state of partial completion. See below for G.G. buttonback and Red Cross Decorations from the C.F.Z. Fire Lots. All these are so-called "Gebr. Godet" awards.

[streptile]

(Continued)

• Finally, G.G. Oakleaves and German Eagle Orders from C.F.Z. Fire Lots.