Deumer catalog RK

[Norm F]

Did anyone notice this interesting item on auction? A 1939 Deumer catalog with a supplement offering the RK for 10.50 Marks. I think not the first time one has come to light but I couldn't find it posted here?

I remember there was a photo posted somewhere from the Lüdenscheid Museum showing the assembly of RK's in Deumer's factory in 1940, another posting of a "Schickle" cross on a Deumer marked board from the Kings Own Shropshire Light Infantry museum, and the the '57 thread with forensic observations strongly suggesting that Deumer made the '57 "Schickle" crosses.

Is it now generally accepted that Deumer made the "Schickle" RKs in 1940?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Dietrich Maerz]

The "Deumer" Knights Croass in the Lüdenscheid museum is a Zimmermann. It can be assumed thet Deumer tried to enter the RK marked by buying parts from Zimmermann (just as Godet did). This was most likely the result after Deumer was no longer allowed to produce the 3/4 Ring Knights Cross due to quality and material problems. At least this is what I think.

There is no connection between Deumer and Schickle, at least not in the period of this catalog and until the demise of Schickle as a supplier of the RK.

Dietrich

[Norm F]

The "Deumer" Knights Croass in the Lüdenscheid museum is a Zimmermann. It can be assumed thet Deumer tried to enter the RK marked by buying parts from Zimmermann (just as Godet did).

Thanks Dietrich. I guess that makes sense since Wolf Conze, the owner of Deumer, was also co-owner of Gebr. Godet & Co.

Unless Deumer acquired parts from more than one source?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Dietrich Maerz]

If Deumer aquired RK parts from other sources then there are only two possibilities:
- it was one of the other known (early) supplier, i.e. Juncker or S&L. But why would then the Lüdenscheid Museum show a Zimmermann as a Deumer?
- or the Knights Cross has not been found yet!

Dietrich

PS: Zimmermann also supplied RK parts (one set is known) to Foerster & Barth, who marked it L/21.

PPS: C.F. Zimmermann was not on the Sept. 1941 list of suppliers of orders and medals to the PKZ, but Deumer was.

[Norm F]

I'm way out of my field and on shaky ground, but I was just wondering if the Zimmermann could have been just one of two different types assembled by Deumer, the other being a Schickle.

I thought Gordon Williamson had once posted an RK from the Kings Own Shropshire Light Infantry museum that was a "Schickle" mounted on a Deumer marked card that had provenance from before the end of the war? But I guess Deumer could have acquired Schickle stock after mid-1941 rather than obtaining parts before that? Likewise the '57 collectors talk of the '57 "Schickle" RK which has the same production values and finish as the Deumer EKs, again supporting the idea of an acquisition of parts from Schickle.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Dietrich Maerz]

IF Deumer aquired Schickle parts after Schickle was no longer allowed to produce then they would needed to be marked either L/11 (no such cross) or "3" (no such cross either).
I do not think that Deumer had anything to do with the RK market after October 1941 and if they supplied crossses before the introduction of the LDO-numbers then they are either unmarked Zimmermann or the 3/4 Ring. They could also have bought S&L, Schickle or Juncker. Nobody could differenciate them at all.

In the last issue of the International Militaria Collector is an article about that Schickle-Oakleave combination. The interesting thing is not so much the unmarked Schickle, but rather the Oaks - they are "900" only marked Godet Type 1 and are the earliest ever known so far, the set is clearly pre March 1941.

Could Deumer have aquired that set to become a licensed RK supplier? Sure. Together with the Zimmermann piece, the Godet Oaks and the Godet connection it could very well be. Maybe some day a Juncker Knights Cross comes up mounted on a Deumer card board. Is then Deumer also the maker of Juncker crosses?

Dietrich

[Andreas Klein]

PPS: C.F. Zimmermann was not on the Sept. 1941 list of suppliers of orders and medals to the PKZ, but Deumer was.

C.F. Zimmermann was allready mentioned and declared as officiial supplier by the PKZ on the list from 11.05.1940.

[Andreas Klein]

It can be assumed thet Deumer tried to enter the RK marked by buying parts from Zimmermann (just as Godet did).

Picturing the cross in an sales catalog which was given to the customers is imo more than "trying" to enter the market and why bying parts from the Pforzheim area when your close neighbour in Lüdenscheid (S&L) was an official tool maker for the iron cross? Makes not that much sense to me.

And with the personal union of Mr. Conze (Godet and Deumer) i see no reason for Godet to buy stuff from Zimmermann.

[Leroy]

Additional reading: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=Regimentals

[Dietrich Maerz]

Picturing the cross in an sales catalog which was given to the customers is imo more than "trying" to enter the market and why bying parts from the Pforzheim area when your close neighbour in Lüdenscheid (S&L) was an official tool maker for the iron cross? Makes not that much sense to me.

And with the personal union of Mr. Conze (Godet and Deumer) i see no reason for Godet to buy stuff from Zimmermann.

But the Knights Cross in the Lüdenscheid Museum which is titled to be a Deumer is a Zimmermann. And the Godet Knights Cross is also a Zimmermann. Might not make sense, but that is what it is.

And maybe you did not understand my first posting: Deumer was in the RK market, they produced the 3/4 Ring.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

Deumer was in the RK market, they produced the 3/4 Ring.

Dietrich

Has that been confirmed?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Only by "advanced collectors" in Germany.

[Leroy]

Only by "advanced collectors" in Germany.

Do they have any proof which could be shared?

[Norm F]

But the Knights Cross in the Lüdenscheid Museum which is titled to be a Deumer is a Zimmermann. And the Godet Knights Cross is also a Zimmermann. Might not make sense, but that is what it is.

Am I missing something? I thought that made perfect sense: both Deumer and Gebr. Godet shared an owner in Wolf Conze so both firms receiving parts from Zimmermann is logical.

Meanwhile there's the separate and harder to define connection between Deumer and Schickle - fairly convincing later on in the '57 era but harder to nail down in wartime.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Dietrich Maerz]

Picturing the cross in an sales catalog which was given to the customers is imo more than "trying" to enter the market and why bying parts from the Pforzheim area when your close neighbour in Lüdenscheid (S&L) was an official tool maker for the iron cross? Makes not that much sense to me.

And with the personal union of Mr. Conze (Godet and Deumer) i see no reason for Godet to buy stuff from Zimmermann.

Norm,

I was refering to this post. It makes perfectly sense to me and is even supported by factual evidence.

Dietrich