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**Leroy** · 01-23-2015, 09:19 PM

Tom - If you compare the formation of the solid swastikas on the piece you posted from the board to the later pieces recently posted (from Souval or someone else), I believe it is clear that the swastikas on the "board" piece are much better, and uniformly, formed, which helps, IMO, to judge period of construction (at least on these down-tailed versions).

I absolutely agree with you that hardware was around for years and years, and that all other aspects of a piece must be examined as part of any evaluation.

P.S. Great photos, Alex.

**Norm F** · 01-23-2015, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by Alex W. View Post

Here are three of my Souval Spanish Crosses. I have many more of them as I collect these pieces, never the less these three should give a good impression about the rough differences.
The silver one has the wing ends soldered onto the cross. It has the swastika not cut out. It also has the tapering pin.
The Souval non-cut out pieces were earlier made than the cut out ones. Both types were made by Souval. Souval used much of St&L's hardware during their production.
The golden one is an early-mid 1960's produced piece with cut-out swastika and non soldered wing tips. L/58 marked.
Last one of the group is the SC with Diamonds. The Souval variant used white saphires instead of diamonds. It also uses a St&L pin with closed hinge block. It's L/58 marked.

Best regards,
Alex

Hi Alex,

Thanks for posting those interesting examples. Compiling the reverse views you can indeed see that the main pin on the L/58 example with solid swastika and sapphires on the left is the early 1960's style while the pin on the L/58 with cut-out swastika on the right is the later mid-1960's style. So perhaps the solid swastika indeed pre-dated the cutout version in Souval's output.

The silver unmarked example that you posted is different. The hinge block isn't quite as tall and the closeup shows it's clearly from a different die than the gold L/58. The pebbled background on the central medallion has a much finer pattern and the polished rims of the cross are narrower. I would hazard a guess that silver one is actually an early 1960's S&L product?

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

**Norm F** · 01-24-2015, 12:02 AM

a little more magnified.

And also here again is Daniel's (grueni1208's) comparison that Tom already showed from the previous '57 thread highlighting some differences between Souval and S&L. I think this too shows that Alex's silver example is the type attributed to S&L's 1960's production.

Attached Files

**Legion Condor** · 01-24-2015, 05:25 AM

Hello,

I see completely different eagle.

With Soval I do not concern myself so much, it remains all copies. Whether 1960 or 1980 produced.
And war piece they have not built. Since I was just collecting original. Are only those of interest for my research. And of course, copies of pieces that existed before 1945.

To me it makes no difference when a copy was produced copy is copy.

About Soval can write a book if one has fun of copies, it is very much to write there.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

**Legion Condor** · 01-24-2015, 06:06 AM

Hello,

I want to say again that I did it this way produces an eagle model is wrong think the S & L.

There is clearly an eagle, S & L, this was used in war and continue after the war.
Why a 2 Adler ?!

If one can be delivered to the S & L S & L a few parts. But not around otherwise.

The production of S & L Spaincrosses is completely closed.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

**Norm F** · 01-24-2015, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post

Hello,

I want to say again that I did it this way produces an eagle model is wrong think the S & L.

There is clearly an eagle, S & L, this was used in war and continue after the war.
Why a 2 Adler ?!

If one can be delivered to the S & L S & L a few parts. But not around otherwise.

The production of S & L Spaincrosses is completely closed.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

Hi Hans Günter,

I disagree. I think you must accept the possibility that at least in the post-war period S&L had a different eagle. We know there was a business relationship of some kind between S&L and Souval and we see countless examples in the '57 production and in Souval's post-war production where Souval used S&L designs and hardware. You can bet that Souval didn't make their own Spanish Cross tooling. Furthermore you see a droop-tail eagle on a "4"-marked Spanish Cross on the Lüdenscheid souvenir board which carries only S&L products. I accept that cross may be post-war but I don't accept that it was made by Souval. All the evidence I see in this thread suggests that S&L indeed had two different eagles -- the regular tail (which acquired the flaw) and the droop-tail which they later supplied to Souval as well.

Best regards,
---Norm

**Leroy** · 01-24-2015, 10:43 AM

Without belaboring the point, these boards were assembled from anything which could be found in the shops and factories, not only of S&L, but GWL, FLL, etc., etc.. (Deumer employees produced their own boards, too.). Items ready to be shipped, items not finished but crudely completed with leftover parts, quality control rejects, prototypes, mistakes, special orders....whatever was around. Nothing was sacred, not even the German Order:

Attached Files

board714b.jpg (74.9 KB, 79 views)

**Norm F** · 01-24-2015, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

Without belaboring the point, these boards were assembled from anything which could be found in the shops and factories, not only of S&L, but GWL, FLL, etc., etc.. (Deumer employees produced their own boards, too.). Items ready to be shipped, items not finished but crudely completed with leftover parts, quality control rejects, prototypes, mistakes, special orders....whatever was around.

Yes, but every item on this particular board was from S&L (or S&L leftovers). There is no reason to believe that a Souval eagle got assembled on to a "4" marked cross, and no evidence that Souval even made a Spanish Cross in wartime.

Attached Files

SKeagle.JPG (83.5 KB, 81 views)

**Leroy** · 01-24-2015, 10:54 AM

Norm, I agree completely! The odds of these being "non-S&L" eagles are extremely remote (as are the odds of these eagles being manufactured postwar just to put on this board).

**Legion Condor** · 01-24-2015, 12:22 PM

Hi Norm,

they can not, because a Spanish Cross with 1. Model Adler really claim that is of S & L.

The S & L Adler are quite clear in the S & L to see the catalog. Other stock images from S & L always show this eagle. All post-war pieces have the eagle as we know from S & L. Because a Soval Adler now they want to say it comes from S & L because he was on a panel. Probably still is to postwar.

Sorry no, this can not be right. Omit all the evidence and rely on a piece.

Explain my pieces that I have presented. There are 3 pieces postwar period. It is wrong to say that you produced on 2 tools at the same time and then another in such a small demand.

Then why not with the eagle 1 model War pieces. Where are all.

I have proof for Typical S & L eagle in the postwar period. Where are their Prove for these eagles are 1. Model of S & L.

But please do not as a proof of this piece of the unsecured panel.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

**Norm F** · 01-24-2015, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post

The S & L Adler are quite clear in the S & L to see the catalog. Other stock images from S & L always show this eagle. All post-war pieces have the eagle as we know from S & L. Because a Souval Adler now they want to say it comes from S & L because he was on a panel. Probably still is to postwar.
...
But please do not as a proof of this piece of the unsecured panel.

Hi Hans Günter,

The S&L catalog was from late 1940-early 1941. There is no catalog of S&L products from late wartime that we know of. The early wartime S&L catalog shows Schwerin's U-Boat, Destroyer and Minesweeper badges instead of their own and doesn't show many badges produced after that time that we have come to know were S&L products. You cannot use the S&L 1941 catalog as proof that S&L didn't make a die for droop tail Spanish Crosses near the end of the war (or even after the war).

The '57 collectors never used the Lüdenscheid souvenir panel to prove that S&L made a droop tail eagle -- they didn't even know about that. Completely separate from that was the observation of the S&L-attributed droop tail Spanish cross with the 1960's setup which is made from a different die from Souval's. It appears you believe that Souval used both of these different dies and stamped the crosses made with one of them L/58 but not the other. But a lot of people in the 1957 collecting community may disagree with that.

I'm not saying S&L didn't make nice 1st pattern eagles early in the war and presumably some flawed 1st pattern eagle examples later on. But that doesn't mean they didn't also make droop tail eagles before later supplying Souval. By the way, S&L also supplied Souval with their Blockade Breaker die in the 1960's. These appear stamped L/58 but S&L's design is completely different from Souval's wartime Blockade Breaker badge. So Souval received tooling from S&L during the '57 era.

And note what Gentry said was included on the Lüdenscheid boards: "Items ready to be shipped, items not finished but crudely completed with leftover parts, quality control rejects, prototypes, mistakes, special orders....whatever was around." The droop tail eagles could easily be among all that, even if it was a rejected design in wartime.

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

**Legion Condor** · 01-24-2015, 07:19 PM

Hi Norm,

please explain to me why 3 Postwar Spain crosses I have with the eagle 2. Model.

Why ask copies 3. Model and and S & L copies with eagle 1. Model Eagle. Why S & L a piece after the war make what is known as a copy. If you have very good copies from the original tool.

You can also bring other decorations of S & L in comparison with Spain crosses.

Explain it to me please !? To me this makes no sense!

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

**Brian S** · 01-24-2015, 07:24 PM

Trying to wrap my head around all the directions this thread is going.

Some of you are saying S&L used a Mother Die.

And now, the droop tail eagle might be a wartime S&L?

The Souval is wartime?

**Norm F** · 01-24-2015, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

Trying to wrap my head around all the directions this thread is going.

Some of you are saying S&L used a Mother Die.

And now, the droop tail eagle might be a wartime S&L?

The Souval is wartime?

Hi Brian,

It is confusing! But here are some key points:

1) No one is suggesting Souval produced a wartime Spanish Cross.

2) There's no question that Souval definitely produced a post-war droop tail Spanish Cross and often marked it L/58 for good measure.

3) The debate here is whether S&L also produced a droop tail and in fact supplied the design to Souval who wasn't known for inventing any new designs post-war but rather scrounged from wherever he could. The evidence suggests that indeed was the case, but Hans Günter does not believe the S&L connection to the droop tail and instead thinks they're all Souval. I contend that S&L produced the droop tail and likely supplied Souval as they were known to do for other awards in the '57 time period.

A secondary discussion is over the time of introduction of the droop tail design and whether it was actually invented during late wartime by S&L (regardless of whether it was actually used) as evidenced by the appearance of the "4"-marked droop tail example on the Lüdenscheid souvenir board. Whether one believes that or not, to me there is already a clear S&L connection to the droop tail later on in the post-war era.

Best regards,
---Norm

P.S. I guess we should put the mother die discussion on hiatus until the whole S&L thing is discussed...

**Norm F** · 01-24-2015, 08:19 PM

Another comparison. First the same image I showed before with Alex's unmarked silver cross with the ca 1960 setup on the left and his marked Souval from mid-1960's on the right. Alex thought the unmarked cross was a Souval and Hans Günter would believe that as well. However, Daniel (grueni1208) has already demonstrated in the 1957 forum discussions that this unmarked type is from a different die and can be attributed to S&L. The stippling is finer, the rims are narrower and the wingtips are soldered to the rims.

The second comparison shows the same silver cross on the left (the "S&L-attributed" droop tail) and this time on the right shows Hans Günter's postwar S&L from post #25 which he estimated as 1970-1980's production. Aside from harkening back to the 1st pattern eagle, I'd say it looks more like the left cross than the Souval did, with fine stippling, narrow rims and the eagle wingtips soldered to the edge. Also, note the similar linear flaws along the outer circular margin of the central medallion.

Although the post-war 1st pattern eagle badges are the S&L design, it's not even clear if S&L even produced these; for all we know their old tooling could have passed into the hands of a 3rd party by the time these were coming out.

Best regards,
---Norm

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