Seems there is some controversy surrounding this particular type...
How does this one look?
How does this one look?
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hello,
this is a cast copy! The there is a very long time on the market!
This variation is often used to copy there will the eagles do not work now.
The copy is very easy to see from the back! The edges of the eagle are always very rounded and not sharp.
also from the front you can see it well on the grain-surfaces.
The original is very nice and fine-grained. In the piece shown very poor. Also, the swastika is a copy!
You could count on even more, but I think it goes like this.
Greeting LC
Hans Günter -
Really? Are these smaller and lighter then the original? What are the weights/dimensions of an original so I can compare.
Hard to measure because of the curvature but the arm are 21.53mm from edge of centre disc to tip to arm.
Centre disc is 16.79mm diameter
weight is 27g
Thanks
RichLast edited by Rich G; 11-15-2014, 03:06 PM.Comment
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The piece that is the subject of this thread is 55.76 x 55.45 so is the same as yours. I would expect a casting to be smaller.
So is it the consensus of knowledgeable SC collectors here that this one is a fake? I would like to have the opinions of more than one person please.
Thanks!Comment
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I would like to see better detailed pics, but I see what LC is sayingComment
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Hi,Originally posted by Rich G View Post
a cast copy is only 3% or less.
You can even expect it!
If the optical features are not enough, then I can not help you. If one does not recognize !!!!!
Greeting LC
Hans GünterComment
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Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post
Hans
I have been collecting a long time and I know as much as anyone the quality of copies that are on the market. My problem is your argument... that the piece should be totally flat. There are plenty of examples of badges that are not flat at the back:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=767237
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=767945
so for me that is not a decider. It all depends on the bottom part of the die used. Maybe they had 2 types. It is not uncommon for makers to change the bottom part of the die.
However, I do understand what you are saying. I just like others to add their opinions and ideas too.
Let's be clear...I am not in denial. I have has this piece a long time and never really gave it much thought until now. In fact I haven't even examined it in years. I do not particularly collect these awards. I started out like many and just wanted a nice example of each type.
The more I look at it, the more I see 'problems'. If I have to return it and I will, then I would like a nice solid line of evidence to back it up to invoke the return policy.
Thanks
RichComment
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hello,
I've seen this type of very many originals, also available in silver and gold. With swords and without.
But there was not one that was so out of focus from behind.
You can also see quite clearly pure cast.
The piece has been already copied a lot. It also speak not only the back for a copy.
Check it please times the swastika on the locket to.
This is very bad for your!
There are other points speak for a copy!
Greeting LC
HansgünterComment
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The problem with at least some of the crosses that have been labeled as cast is they are not cast at all- they are die struck. I was able to examine one of such crosses under close scrutiny and posted my findings here: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=748908&page=2
I was also able to examine the 'cast' cross side by side with another original- some of the measurements that typically have nothing to do with curved surfaces (diameter of the center disc, height of the eagles, width of the arms) was spot on with original as well. Not very possible on a cast piece either.
I was hoping for some more input from the proponents of the cast theory but as much as they viewed the thread after my latest post, nothing was added or commented upon.
So let me pose my question again here: why does a supposedly cast piece display shear marks on the perimeter of the cross where the cast line would have to be present or if filed off- file marks, alternatively a clean line if the edge was polished?
Why are the dimensions the same on a supposed cast piece as they are on original crosses when ANY cast will inevitably shrink?
Looking forward to learning more.
cheers
MattComment
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hello,
I have answered many times.
When cast copies we have only 3% maximum deviation. We talk of max 1.5 mm. Then there is use of the difference.
The pieces are bent differently.
If you could tell at a Spanish Cross which is good. I can not.
A Laser copy is very expensive. And I have not seen yet.
Stamped copies very many! But also have sharp known on the back.
Up here before or clear?
There were all crosses punched! That's for sure!
Otherwise it was not produced! Is just normal for the time, and also very clear to see.
Show it as a piece of a metal Profie. The idea has punch from.
He will confirm it to them.
The pieces are stamped, have very sharp knew in the back. If you have been edited, maybe not!
You can take any manufacturer, it always shows the same picture.
Always very sharply from behind.
And I can not understand that they can not see the poor quality of the front also.
The swastika is very bad, so what did not exist. Also graining on the surface can not be compared with an original.
More comparison I can not show.
I can not help you better!
My English is not so good, I can explain everything well. Sorry.
Greeting LC
Hans GünterComment
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Hello Hans Gunter,Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post
Like I said before- the cross I examined- previously owned by Stan and declared by you a cast copy is the same size as an undisputed original. No size variation at all. There is no 'bent' in the spots as measured. NONE. Brass alloys will typically shrink on average between 1.5-3.5%. Here we have none.
What it does have are the shear marks where the casting line would have to be. It is not possible to retain those without showing a cast line if the piece was cast.
This is not my opinion. THOSE ARE HARD FACTS.Comment
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Hi,
with a good spin cast you did not even 1% of what schrupft there.
And the punch marks also occur with!
If they rely on the mass, then they are leaving!
You must pay attention to the appearance more. The weight and the weight can be as good copy that you can not find it.
In very simple cast copies we speak of within 3%.
But not when they come from a good workshop. Then we talk about almost zero. You can also produce it with 0%.
With a silicone cast form copy they will even 2-3% larger!
This is not my opinion, but hard facts.
According to your statement, we need only go to mass and can forget any optics as fixed position.
If the mass is the piece ok?
Just look that is always the decision, if the rest is good!
I say it again, if they can not see the difference in the swastika, then I'm sorry!
If you're using a punching tool, then sees a piece like the others, so with the time it may be slightly different.
But such differences as here, there is not the punch.
And this piece was not built with two different substances.
Explain this variant as the original, I will not do it.
Exactly the piece shown has been known for years as a copy.
Let us discuss about what else, here we are at the end!
Greeting LC
Hans GünterComment
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Hard Facts?Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post
When they give you specs on silicone cast shrinkage- they're talking about the shrinkage of the MOLD. Not the product. Yes, you can expand the overall size using various liquids. Do I need to tell you what that does to details? No, it does not matter if it is a good shop or not.
Furthermore you should really look into what materials silicone molds are used for and with what amount of detail before you make another claim like this.
If as you put it, it is possible to retain the shear marks using the spin cast method without showing the casting line (impression made by the two halves of the mold) then I have two questions- how do you take the initial cast impression of the master and how do you take out the product out of the mold without splitting the mold in two and thus creating the casting line?
First you tried to explain the same size as caused by the curvatures in design, now you'd like to have us believe there is a method that will produce an exact same size bronze cast of a piece like a cross in question with the amount of detail while in fact it is false.
cheers
MattComment
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Originally posted by Matthew View Post
Hi,
no I want to tell you nothing! Because you can not!
You understand it bein times not that there are different possibilities and options are always better.
I really do not want to start over again with you to discuss the issue.
Stay with your opinion and buy your pieces to compositions and weight. And also you will find your disappointment!
I know where of I speak, I had many hundreds of SPK in the hand and have enough copies found.
Where many to top it did not want to believe.
Again in the end, if you do not view it that this is a cast copy, then it's too late for you!
There are other features, but also brings not to discuss with you.
You know only mass and weight!
And as the time is too precious to me!
So much fun with your opinion.
Greeting LC
Hans GünterComment
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