SCiB w/o Swords

[jacques]

Hard to be 100% sure. Personnally I like when these kind of cross comes with a light bronze colour and a mushroom type top axe to the hinge.
I noticed that some crosses have a dark bronze colour, with a normal barrel axe, and eagles with a kind of smooth edge. Some of them came out of groupings, generally KM groupings.
I remember a nice engraved bronze cross (panzerschift Graf Spee) which had such details.
jacques

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

it is the question copy or not. Just pay attention to the look. Not if these pieces were times in a nGroup or not. It can be anything but also not. It can be purchased long after pieces. Or improvement simply placed a copy in.

Important details to be compared. No manufacturer has used several time-stamping tools for such a short production. That makes up such a small number of badges such as the SPK no sense.

Not with a badge on the market so much different embossing characteristics. Why is the eagle so good and the edges so bad. Why the back so bad and better. In the originals everything is very nice.

I showed all the typical signs of a copy, there is only sawn swastikas and no cast. The hinge pin, surface, swastikas and the Medaillion not lie.

And very important! These copies are known for years. All signs speak of a cast piece. Round knew, color, poor surface, are not always the same quality, etc.

This model was readily copied because you do not have an extra constituted the eagle. This is nothing new!

Always collectors believe that the piece is original, because they can be found sometimes in a group.
I can put everything into a single group. But there is a piece of non-original. It remains a copy, just in a group.

Why do we always talk about the copies, in any forum, a copy will always be discussed.
Way too much for originals.
The original that I have shown and also other originals that I can show. All of which are produced just as beautiful and also have the mushroom hinge, will almost never discussed.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Rich G]

Rich, if that's your center disc compared to Hans', yours is a kopie.

Truth is I've had one in my cigar box for several years. Bought it on eBay off a fuzzy photo and it looked good from the photo. Was fairly cheap so I figured why not. Mine was marked CEJ. Faker got smarter and stopped that apparently. I'm guessing it was around '95 or so. Same color, same center disc.

Brian

The centre disk is exactly the same at that posted by Hans. If you rotate it 90 deg clockwise you will see that.

I don't think it is any softer in detail that the other either. They have different finishes which make give the illusion of being softer.


If you could post your 'CEJ' example that would be very useful.

Rich

[Rich G]

Rich, yours looks soft and cast. What do you think about the eagle swastikas? Have you photographed them carefully to see if the edges are soft? Or do you think they are literally sharp?

Brian, none of the eagle swastikas have soft or rounded edges. All are straight and sharp.

[Legion Condor]

Brian, none of the eagle swastikas have soft or rounded edges. All are straight and sharp.

Hi Rich,

Please do not misunderstand me. But I do not want that some collectors still think everything is. And the copiers have achieved their goal.

But if you say these are the swastikas sharp.

Then alternate but please look at a picture of a swastika. Front and back.

I do then to compare an image.

What is your opinion of the hinge? Is there even anything in your top piece?

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Brian S]

I hear you Rich and I did rotate yours to line them up and saw they were the same form. For me I am convinced it is a cast copy but to all of the others who think otherwise that's OK too. I am pretty discriminating when it comes to the SK and learned my lessons on these. I can't find the CEJ. I have often taken these out on my boat and hung the fake KM and SK pieces just for fun inside the easy to walk into cabin. A few have disappeared over the years but obviously I just didn't care. Thought it funny someone thought they had just scored great nassi badge off some idiot who left it on his boat. But if it turns up I'll post it for sure. Same one because I remember that "hole" in the wreath that makes the comparison between yours and Hans' so easy.

[Legion Condor]

Hi Brian,

I also do not know what I can do or write.
There are people who just do not believe and can not see difference.
No matter how big the difference is!

For me it is now the end also with the copy. Have been too much written about the piece!

Those who still do not know now and understand?

One last image for those who do not want to believe it! So they need to see and otherwise!
Everything else is cold coffee!

Dear collector please do not buy the pieces where it started here.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Brian S]

Last piece posted by Hans appears to be a nicely die struck example.

[Rich G]

Same one because I remember that "hole" in the wreath that makes the comparison between yours and Hans' so easy.

Which "hole" are you referring to, Brian? Apologies if you pointed it out before.

I am not denying that it is in the reverse that the differences really come out, with the soft edges on the reverse of the eagles.

Please be aware that I am not trying to defend this piece, I am answering all the questions that are being asked as honestly as I can so that we can find the truth about this.

One thing I find odd in this piece is that the cross, hinge, catch and pin all seem to be made of the same material. I cannot think of another item that is like that. Certainly not in my collection anyway.

I have another SCiB with swords that I am going to examine today to see if everything is made from the same material.

Rich

[Rich G]

OK, looks like no one else wants to comment. You can see the level of interest is pretty much nil except for a few of us.

Anyway, if this is a casting of an original then there will be a flaw somewhere common to all from the die. In order to find it we need everyone that has one of these to post a cleat photo of the back.

This is in the interest of us all, not just me.

Rich

[Serge M.]

OK, looks like no one else wants to comment. You can see the level of interest is pretty much nil except for a few of us.

Anyway, if this is a casting of an original then there will be a flaw somewhere common to all from the die. In order to find it we need everyone that has one of these to post a cleat photo of the back.

This is in the interest of us all, not just me.

Rich

LEt's face it. With all these good fakes around, it's no wonder the hobby is losing interest along with thread participation. It's a hard time, with the crappy economy, to take a 'hit' on a fake.

(at least you got a post on your thread. Oh, it's THANKSGIVING !? )

-wagner-

[Rich G]

LEt's face it. With all these good fakes around, it's no wonder the hobby is losing interest along with thread participation.

And that is exactly why people should be interested...

[Rich G]

Interesting...here Hans is saying this is an original:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...h+cross+bronze


Another here declared original:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...h+cross+bronze

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...h+cross+bronze

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...h+cross+bronze

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...h+cross+bronze

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...h+cross+bronze

This one is interesting...has mushroom head in hinge pin but rounded eagle backs
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ronze+grouping

One from a grouping:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...s+bronze+group

Any comments?

Rich

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ronze+grouping

[streptile]

I don't know much about Spanish Crosses, but I sure don't see any evidence of this piece being cast.

[Alex K.]

Yes, very interesting ...

Thank you Rich for looking for reference material. So we have many opinions on these type of crosses from experienced collectors over the years and another cross which shares both "features" of an "original" and "copy" piece from a, in my opinion trusted, grouping. Together with the pieces i shown from 2 more groupings from families (and i am pretty sure more untouched groupings with these crosses are out there) and the fact that this cross in suspect in this thread is no cast leads to one statement from my side: Congratulations to you nice, original cross.