Spanish Cross in Bronze CEJ

[Stan]

I bought this cross from Martin on estand last September and was delighted to get a "CEJ" marked piece.

Another similar cross was discussed on a different forum over the weekend and the cross was condemned as a fake for the following reason's:

1. The eagle's swas appear to be sawn out but are in fact moulded and each swas has the saw cuts in the same place.

2. The CEJ mark is wrong as the "C" should be completely round and not elongated.

3. The catch is not shaped like a Juncker catch.

As Jacques had given the thumbs up to an identical cross shown here http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...oss+Bronze+CEJ
I have asked Martin if I can return the cross and although he hasn't said no he has suggested the cross is discussed here first.

Here are the photos so let me know what you all think!

Stan

[Stan]

Here is the catch and close up's of the swas's which all appear to have the saw marks in the same place the same as this other one http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...oss+Bronze+CEJ
Doesn't look to me like the typical Juncker clasp with a bevelled leading edge but the colour is spot on.
Stan

[Stan]

The top of the pin where it enters the catch was also a concern to one Juncker expert as were the lack of file marks on the edges of the cross.

[Byakkotai]

D**n stylist! Good one for me.

[Stan]

Jacques sent me an email last night to say that he had seen another Cross a couple of weeks ago which looked OK until he saw the edges of the cross which appeared moulded.

You can see these lines on each arm of this cross. Has anyone seen this feature before on a SC?

Stan

[Leroy]

Stan - Can you take the measurements of this piece and compare them with a known good 'CEJ' cross?

[Stan]

Hi Leroy,

The measurements are:

Gold: 55,98mm H x 55,84W

Silver: 56,60mm H x 55,67 W

Bronze CEJ: 55,60 H x 55,96W

Stan

[Leroy]

Thanks, Stan. Now if someone with a confirmed original 'CEJ' cross can compare, there may be some interesting results.

[Brian S]

Stan could you please post a nice clear clean crisp photo of the sword hilt? And also one of the best defined eagles. Your photos are not good enough for me to be certain ether way...

You can see these lines on each arm of this cross. Has anyone seen this feature before on a SC?

Stan

And yes. You will notice the bronze is less hand finished than the Gold/Silver versions. And a cast copy would pick that up.

These badges fell off uniforms by the hundreds on 6/6/1939. Owner could have adjusted clasp so that is not a concern.

[Stan]

Here you are Brian:

[Brian S]

I fixed your photo a bit. Looks good to me from the photo. So what DO you see on the edges? And are you convinced the material is bronze?

[Stan]

Brian, if you look at photo #5 you will see a line running along the lower left and lower right arm of the cross. These lines are on the edges of all the arms of the cross. They aren't there on my other CEJ crosses.

What do you make of the C in CEJ? Have you seen an elongated C like this before?

Stan

[Brian S]

I can see on other crosses where the line was but was finished down. There are several CEJ marks. That alone cannot condemn this cross. I don't even try to be an expert on all those CEJ stamps but I have seen several on perfect awards. My bronze as stated has that "line" because it wasn't finished as well as a gold or silver. If you have a gold/silver look at those arms, you will see grinding on those places. Given the lack of time, I think the bronze simply wasn't given as much effort to perfect it especially given the numbers versus the silver/gold.

Maybe you could snag a photo of another bronze cross that has been "condemned"...

Can you show a side shot of the hinge?

[Brian S]

Here's the CEJ on a cross deemed "bad".

[Brian S]

Condemned obverse, "swastika is not like Juncker"