Deschler Hoard Book Project

[Knight_ridergta]

Look at all these responses! Very interesting points gentleman, I like Tony's idea for the title!

[Knight_ridergta]

I'm in the same boat as you Robert! I myself suffered from Deschler Hoard fever a little while ago if some of you may recall

I don't find it boring at all. In fact I find it highly interesting that a hoard/stockpile of awards, whether it be the Deschler, Zimmermann or Stuttgart hoard, could be lost to time and then suddenly be found. I was fortunate enough to purchase the complete series/set of numbered Assmann GAB's out of the Stuttgart hoard from Jason Burmeister many years ago. It was very exciting to own a piece of history. It was Assmann's last pattern of GAB's in mint condition. I think the subject of the hoard(s) would make for very good reading to the collector.

Just my $0.02 worth...

Robert

[Robert P.]

Yes, I remember.

I know many collectors will be more than happy to send you awards out of their personal collectibles from the hoard(s) so that you can either make scans or photos for your article/book. I have an excellent scanner (Epson 4490) that I use from time to time, but if you need the award itself to work with just give the word and it/they will be in the mail.

Robert

[Brian R]

Agreed that an article might be a better approach, or a start. That said, in addition to images and examples of the various pieces, it would have to be an investigation into its history, the related rumors and anecdotes and then a complete investigation into the company, anyone who was in the position to have access to the hoard, and the various dealers and such who had these to sell over the years. The story could be fascinating, whether its real or not, and you are bound to uncover some aspect of the story that will come as a complete surprise. It really would be a great chapter in the history of the Iron Cross.

[Knight_ridergta]

Thank you Robert for the offer! I think right now pictures will do fine. I'm making a list of what I'll need and getting the information together. I'll send you a message when I get stuff rolling!

Yes, I remember.

I know many collectors will be more than happy to send you awards out of their personal collectibles from the hoard(s) so that you can either make scans or photos for your article/book. I have an excellent scanner (Epson 4490) that I use from time to time, but if you need the award itself to work with just give the word and it/they will be in the mail.

Robert

[Knight_ridergta]

I thinks so!

Agreed that an article might be a better approach, or a start. That said, in addition to images and examples of the various pieces, it would have to be an investigation into its history, the related rumors and anecdotes and then a complete investigation into the company, anyone who was in the position to have access to the hoard, and the various dealers and such who had these to sell over the years. The story could be fascinating, whether its real or not, and you are bound to uncover some aspect of the story that will come as a complete surprise. It really would be a great chapter in the history of the Iron Cross.

[jani_tiainen]

Dear Friends,

If somebody found Deschler dies, manufactured the hoard and created the story.... It would be quite easy to examine the paint / Silver wash and their composition - and compare it to the old examples. Would it? The same technic Dietrich used in his research with the paint in Knight's crosses.

If there is a real doubt - using mass spectrometer is not as difficult as it sounds. Send me old one with the bullet proof history and one from the hoard and I will go to the university nearby and do the thing.

Jani

[Marcel]

My KVK1 from the Deschler hoard, discoloration

Hello,

Again for what its worth:
my KVK1wS from the hoard when I received it in may 2007, shiny new, and as it appears now.
60 years of ageing with no effect, followed by another 6 years of very different impact!
Surprise?

KVK1wS in may 2007:
http://www.dropshots.com/H12345#date...11-30/00:00:00

Same KVK1wS in nov 2013:
http://www.dropshots.com/H12345#date...11-30/00:00:01

Greetings,
Marcel

[Knight_ridergta]

Not a bad idea! This could put a lot of questions at rest.

Dear Friends,

If somebody found Deschler dies, manufactured the hoard and created the story.... It would be quite easy to examine the paint / Silver wash and their composition - and compare it to the old examples. Would it? The same technic Dietrich used in his research with the paint in Knight's crosses.

If there is a real doubt - using mass spectrometer is not as difficult as it sounds. Send me old one with the bullet proof history and one from the hoard and I will go to the university nearby and do the thing.

Jani

[Knight_ridergta]

That is strange! Maybe it had some weird reaction to something in the environment

Hello,

Again for what its worth:
my KVK1wS from the hoard when I received it in may 2007, shiny new, and as it appears now.
60 years of ageing with no effect, followed by another 6 years of very different impact!
Surprise?

KVK1wS in may 2007:
http://www.dropshots.com/H12345#date...11-30/00:00:00

Same KVK1wS in nov 2013:
http://www.dropshots.com/H12345#date...11-30/00:00:01

Greetings,
Marcel

[jabnus]

i can confirm that many crosses from "the hoard" have the same look now after a few years.

[Jo Rivett]

Not a bad idea! This could put a lot of questions at rest.

What "questions" would it put to rest?
You have a group of odd fellows, who supposedly found a stash, they sold it off, and continue to sell it off, to all corners of the globe. You then have mini-merchants, such as yourself, who sell off pieces from this "hoard" on the eStand here, and continue to sell them off, to people all over. And now, IF a collector sends a piece, that "supposedly" came from this hoard, and it is deemed to be good, that ..... "will put a lot of questions to bed" ? Can you see how you are going in the opposite direction to what would be required?

Just inlcude the disclaimer, and make it a picture book - for those who want to believe, thats all you need to do, because as far as authenticity of the actual Hoard, as far as tyring to prove that it actually happened at all, is an imposibillity.

What do you expect to hear from those who "found" it? that it`s real? they are making rubels hand over fist from it, what do you think they will tell you?

Deschler? What will Deschler tell you? That they knew about a stash of NS stuff for years, and waited until a few years ago to let the right people "have it"

Collectors, who own a piece? what do you seriously want to hear from them, that they have concerns? that their items are not real?

How can you ever, test a piece from this "Deschler hoard"? because you have no idea if the KvK or EK you were sold, actually came from this hoard. Yes the sellers will tell you it does, but dont make the mistake of writing a book, and then insulting the readers intelligence by leaving out the footnotes. (What footnotes could ever be in a book like this?)

A picture book really is, the only way to go on this subject. Nothing wrong with this idea at all IMHO, just dont try and legitimize an occurrence like this, with a few images and the words of others, because you will sorely regret it in a few years - IF, it was ever proved otherwise, then you will go down with them, more so, you will take much more Flak than the rest because you wrote a book legitimizing it!

[Knight_ridergta]

Josef,

Good points, what I meant is that it could help confirm that they are indeed from the Second World War.

Yes there is speculation everywhere, as with a lot of things in life. I think a book/article approaching it from different points would be the best. A section on the group of non-believers claims along with the believers in a compare and contrast setting would be beneficial I think for all. Along with pictures of various collectors pieces and possibly pictures that some claim to be from the hoard itself.

I had no intention of stirring up a fuss with everyone here, I just want to do something for the collecting community.

What "questions" would it put to rest?
You have a group of odd fellows, who supposedly found a stash, they sold it off, and continue to sell it off, to all corners of the globe. You then have mini-merchants, such as yourself, who sell off pieces from this "hoard" on the eStand here, and continue to sell them off, to people all over. And now, IF a collector sends a piece, that "supposedly" came from this hoard, and it is deemed to be good, that ..... "will put a lot of questions to bed" ? Can you see how you are going in the opposite direction to what would be required?

Just inlcude the disclaimer, and make it a picture book - for those who want to believe, thats all you need to do, because as far as authenticity of the actual Hoard, as far as tyring to prove that it actually happened at all, is an imposibillity.

What do you expect to hear from those who "found" it? that it`s real? they are making rubels hand over fist from it, what do you think they will tell you?

Deschler? What will Deschler tell you? That they knew about a stash of NS stuff for years, and waited until a few years ago to let the right people "have it"

Collectors, who own a piece? what do you seriously want to hear from them, that they have concerns? that their items are not real?

How can you ever, test a piece from this "Deschler hoard"? because you have no idea if the KvK or EK you were sold, actually came from this hoard. Yes the sellers will tell you it does, but dont make the mistake of writing a book, and then insulting the readers intelligence by leaving out the footnotes. (What footnotes could ever be in a book like this?)

A picture book really is, the only way to go on this subject. Nothing wrong with this idea at all IMHO, just dont try and legitimize an occurrence like this, with a few images and the words of others, because you will sorely regret it in a few years - IF, it was ever proved otherwise, then you will go down with them, more so, you will take much more Flak than the rest because you wrote a book legitimizing it!

[jabnus]

Hi,

No one is doubting your good intentions and a book about the hoard could be interesting from various points of view, even if not all the facts can be found. As Jo mentions there are also many many MANY collectors who own at least one piece of it and will follow such a project with much interest if it is done right.

Reading the responses and your replies so far i do think you are up for a project that could be quite a bit bigger as you expected when typing that fist post.

The whole project also seems to come down to two sides that a book about the hoard has to cover:

- 1 The facts. Plain and simple and most probably impossible to uncover.

Can they be dug up? Jo sums it up quite well above here. Finding a credible source seems like a needle in a haystack, you can't trust any dealer, seller, or even owner of any claimed item from the hoard, as every opinion will be coloured. It seems that the only thing to do is to try and find any evidence of the items in times from before the hoard was found. This brings you to Deschler. Every company makes inventory lists for their financial balances every year, do such lists exist from the period between 1945 to say 2000? Although it would still mean nothing as these could be forged, it would probably be the best "proof" possible, although Deschler has maybe been payed well enough to look the other side and ignore possible added items to the hoard. So, where is the proof? If there is no proof there is no book.

- 2 The items from the hoard. In this topic are already the usual replies with "ooohs and aaahs" when a common thirteen in a dozen EK or KVK is posted, but who cares actually? They are not rare at all, are plenty and plenty available (remember this is about a HOARD!) and are already pictured in specialised books about EK's and KvK's that many collectors have, so why bother to spend much pages on those common items? The one of a kind items are probably the most interesting. Are they real? Can they be traced back as to being actually before may 45 produced? Are all items claimed to be fromt he hoard actually coming from it or have they been added by certain dealers that sell the hoards items and that have commited such fraudulating facts in the past before? What is the history or purpose of the one of a kind items?

Do you know all the unique items from the hoard? I remember a few and might have saved pictures from a few like e.g the Coburg badge. It appears that some paperwork exists, look at Weitzes current sales at e.g the Ehrenzeichen des Reichskultursenats:

Anbei die Bestätigung des ehemaligen Inhabers der Firma Deschler & Sohn München, vom 27.2.2008, daß das Werksmodell des Ehrenzeichens vor 1945 bei Deschler gefertigt wurde und als Musterstück diente. Hochinteressantes ordenskundliches Belegstück, welches sich nur durch das fehlende Herstellerzeichen und die Verleihungsnummer von den verliehenen Exemplaren unterscheidet.

There is also some paperwork with the unique motherscross prototype. Does more paperwork like this exist and what does it say??? can it e proven or are it all made up lies to cheat the collectorscommunity out of easily a few millions of euros!!!

Very important too: can you find all the unique prototypes back in the many unknown collections they ended up in, to picture them in a book? For example, as said i own one piece i consider a one of a kind item and although i shared a few bad pictures even here on the forum, i would not share any more detailed pictures of it untill i have published it myself first. I can imagine more people think the same and thus it will be very hard to make a book.

Another thought is for example the Reichsautobahn badge weitze is selling at the moment as "Abzeichen für die Ehrengäste zur Eröffnung "2000 km Reichsautobahn". This was a few years ago advertised as a hoard prototype. Why not anymore now? How about many other presentation pieces that were sold over the years? Getting any "facts" or even pictures of hoards items, appears to be quite an (almost) impossible project.


Please don't let this disappoint you, this can be a very interesting project, but to do it right is not something like "make a little chapter here, make a little chapter there, a little blabla and add a photo or two of a kvk in a package and some EK2's and tadaa! Then it will be just another piece of toiletpaper that resembles way too many books (the Gau badge book comes to mind) that have been thrown on the collectorsmarket the past years.

The trick will be to do it right!


best regards,
Gaston

[Knight_ridergta]

You hit all the points indeed! This will be a lot bigger of a project then I initially anticipated but I am not giving up just yet.

The facts and the items are very important, if I could get official documentation from Deschler about the order like forms and such then could be a better foundation on to write something I think.

I'll keep everyone updated on what I find!

Hi,

No one is doubting your good intentions and a book about the hoard could be interesting from various points of view, even if not all the facts can be found. As Jo mentions there are also many many MANY collectors who own at least one piece of it and will follow such a project with much interest if it is done right.

Reading the responses and your replies so far i do think you are up for a project that could be quite a bit bigger as you expected when typing that fist post.

The whole project also seems to come down to two sides that a book about the hoard has to cover:

- 1 The facts. Plain and simple and most probably impossible to uncover.

Can they be dug up? Jo sums it up quite well above here. Finding a credible source seems like a needle in a haystack, you can't trust any dealer, seller, or even owner of any claimed item from the hoard, as every opinion will be coloured. It seems that the only thing to do is to try and find any evidence of the items in times from before the hoard was found. This brings you to Deschler. Every company makes inventory lists for their financial balances every year, do such lists exist from the period between 1945 to say 2000? Although it would still mean nothing as these could be forged, it would probably be the best "proof" possible, although Deschler has maybe been payed well enough to look the other side and ignore possible added items to the hoard. So, where is the proof? If there is no proof there is no book.

- 2 The items from the hoard. In this topic are already the usual replies with "ooohs and aaahs" when a common thirteen in a dozen EK or KVK is posted, but who cares actually? They are not rare at all, are plenty and plenty available (remember this is about a HOARD!) and are already pictured in specialised books about EK's and KvK's that many collectors have, so why bother to spend much pages on those common items? The one of a kind items are probably the most interesting. Are they real? Can they be traced back as to being actually before may 45 produced? Are all items claimed to be fromt he hoard actually coming from it or have they been added by certain dealers that sell the hoards items and that have commited such fraudulating facts in the past before? What is the history or purpose of the one of a kind items?

Do you know all the unique items from the hoard? I remember a few and might have saved pictures from a few like e.g the Coburg badge. It appears that some paperwork exists, look at Weitzes current sales at e.g the Ehrenzeichen des Reichskultursenats:




There is also some paperwork with the unique motherscross prototype. Does more paperwork like this exist and what does it say??? can it e proven or are it all made up lies to cheat the collectorscommunity out of easily a few millions of euros!!!

Very important too: can you find all the unique prototypes back in the many unknown collections they ended up in, to picture them in a book? For example, as said i own one piece i consider a one of a kind item and although i shared a few bad pictures even here on the forum, i would not share any more detailed pictures of it untill i have published it myself first. I can imagine more people think the same and thus it will be very hard to make a book.

Another thought is for example the Reichsautobahn badge weitze is selling at the moment as "Abzeichen für die Ehrengäste zur Eröffnung "2000 km Reichsautobahn". This was a few years ago advertised as a hoard prototype. Why not anymore now? How about many other presentation pieces that were sold over the years? Getting any "facts" or even pictures of hoards items, appears to be quite an (almost) impossible project.


Please don't let this disappoint you, this can be a very interesting project, but to do it right is not something like "make a little chapter here, make a little chapter there, a little blabla and add a photo or two of a kvk in a package and some EK2's and tadaa! Then it will be just another piece of toiletpaper that resembles way too many books (the Gau badge book comes to mind) that have been thrown on the collectorsmarket the past years.

The trick will be to do it right!


best regards,
Gaston