The Assmann Schinkel-Old

[streptile]

Trevor, a nice thread about these early, ugly crosses.

I am one of those that are not convinced that Assmann made these ek's, I think these are Schauerte & Hofeld made crosses.

Hi Ben,

Happy to hear from you here

Of course I know your opinion that these are by S&H, and I have been looking forward to this discussion.

I agree with you that the style of date is very similar to S&H, and the fact that both types of EK1s share the same hardware with marked S&H is very compelling evidence indeed.

I have an alternate suggestion to make: What if these two crosses were made by different makers?



They both are poor quality, and ugly, extremely lightweight.

However, there are also some differences. I am a little handicapped because I don't have an EK1 SB version of the Right cross (what I call an Assmann here), and I don't have a pinback version of either cross, but I know you do, so perhaps you can let me know if there is that possibility.

When I look at the two EK2s next to each other, I see a lot of similarities. But there are also some differences:

1. Finish is different on the Left cross (flanges are more polished, rims seem to have remnants of frosting);
2. Flanges are narrower on Right cross;
3. Quality overall is a bit better on Left cross;
4. Of course, the core is different.

And, really, only the core on the Left cross is very similar to the later S&H crosses, and only the Right cross really matches the "A" marked 1914 EK2 I own in terms of finish, frame, and weight.

So, do you think it's possible that the one on the Right is made by Assmann, and the Left by S&H? They could have shared a designer, or at least a hardware supplier. Both S&H and Assmann are Lüdenscheid makers.

I'm very curious to hear your opinion and thank you for posting your photos.

[fabri-online]

Hi guys
it is my little contribution for this very nice and interesting thread.
charateristics of my cross (that seems to me it match the left one in your last post, Trevor):
- non ferrous core (non magnetic)
- dimensions: 43x43,2
- weight: 13 grams (indicative weight)

[Douglas 5]

Interesting cross Fabri :
Not poor quality and ugly though

Douglas

[fabri-online]

true Douglas, same for me.

I add a pic that shows another charateristic: suspension ring is soldered just on front side.

[Douglas 5]

A suspention ring just soldered on one side was done by other makers too , if I remember correctly ?
The lower corner flaws peticular on Trevor's last 2 remind me of R3 EK2s that are strangely simular .

Douglas

[ben bijker]

Nice ek, fabri!!


Trevor, I have compared both pinbacks several times, but IMO they are from the same maker.
The same goes for the SB's....
I can't explain the different cores though, that would be a guessing-game...

Maybe some day it will be clear ho made these ek's, but not at this moment....
(Although I believe these are from S&H ).....

ben

[streptile]

Hi Ben,

Very interesting. Since the time when we last discussed this, I too have been looking closely at these two EK2s. I do it's possible think they were made by different makers! In my opinion not only the core and the finish are different, but the frame beading as well. Yours may have the same frame as each other, I don't know. But I think my two are different. To me, this opens up two possibilities:

1. They are made by the same maker but the Left is a later frame and core;
2. They are made by different makers.

I think in the recent past these were called "Assmann or L/54," so maybe they will continue to be called such. My opinion remains that the cross on the Right is by maker Assmann (for all the reasons I said above), and the cross on the Left may be by S&H.

[Douglas 5]

Hi Trevor :
From looking at your 2 crosses -from post 37- I would say they are option #1 .

Douglas

[5tefan]

Some Assman EK1 ;-)

Hi Trevor,

good job ;-) I don't know why, I did not respond to your thread. But it seems to be, I was on vacation at this time. Maybe I can help with some pictures of EK1 version ;-) Let's take a look to this link:

http://www.ek1-dna.de/unknown-maker--assmann---.php

Ok, all pictures are without swastika, but the law here in Germany didn't allowed to show swastika for the public. But my side is forseen for the public, so this is the constraint of this homepage ;-)

But hopefully you will see the difference between the frame struture and the core desígn of Ben's marked L/54 #26 until #29. He mixed also some pictures when he switch from Obverse to Reverse. Maybe it confused too much people.
Let it make simpel, Ben didn't show any EK1 with the core design (e.g. date design "Number 1 with fishtail" and the very special frame structur with L/54 or L54 maker mark! All L/54 or L54 marked EK1 core and frames are textbook Schaueret & Hoehfeld! By using the same Pinsetup or Two Piece Screwback, doesn't mean that the maker must be Schaueret & Hoehfeld! F. W. Assmann & Söhne and Schauerte & Hohfeld both are located @ Lüdenscheid and why they should not use the same 2nd Tier parts like Pinsetup or Screwsetup?

I'm very confident, that Trevor is right and the first shown crosses made by Assmann ;-) Good job, Trevor ;-)

And I'm very confident, the the shown EK1 here are Assmann EK1 ;-)
http://www.ek1-dna.de/unknown-maker--assmann---.php
Even we can see two differnent core design ;-) Common Date and Small Date ;-)

Maybe my next ítem would be the discussion, why we talk about a Half Schinkel EK1 ;-) But for this, I plan to open a new thread

[ben bijker]

But hopefully you will see the difference between the frame struture and the core desígn of Ben's marked L/54 #26 until #29. He mixed also some pictures when he switch from Obverse to Reverse. Maybe it confused too much people.
Let it make simpel, Ben didn't show any EK1 with the core design (e.g. date design "Number 1 with fishtail" and the very special frame structur with L/54 or L54 maker mark! All L/54 or L54 marked EK1 core and frames are textbook Schaueret & Hoehfeld! By using the same Pinsetup or Two Piece Screwback, doesn't mean that the maker must be Schaueret & Hoehfeld! F. W. Assmann & Söhne and Schauerte & Hohfeld both are located @ Lüdenscheid and why they should not use the same 2nd Tier parts like Pinsetup or Screwsetup?

Stefan, I don't really get your point.
I didn't say they are the same, I said that there are many similarities in style.
S&H made a lot of ek's during the war, but I have never seen an Assmann from a later date.

Since the similarity is so big (curvature of the arms, style of the date) IMO you see the evolution of the S&H ek.

About the hardware: these crosses are from the early years, I don't think there were many companies specializing in hardware at that point.

To me these crosses are S&H, but it's just a theory.
No proof either way, except for the catalog, which btw doesn't mean Assmann made the ek's!!

[Douglas 5]

Since this thread was done an A&S ring marked EK2 has shown up .
To me the cross does not match the possible 2 shown above and may only have an 'added' mark on the ring ..... would be helpfull if Ben or Trevor etc. could have a look at it .

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post5297877

Douglas

[fabri-online]

Personally I think that unfortunately the stamp on ring has nothing to do with Assmann.
2nd, but just my personal thought, I 'm going on the idea that Assmann didn't produced any EK during the WWII, just bought them from S&H, both located in Lüdenscheid.

[streptile]

Thanks for linking the threads Douglas. I agree with Fabri that the A&S stamp has no chance at being original.

2nd, but just my personal thought, I 'm going on the idea that Assmann didn't produced any EK during the WWII, just bought them from S&H, both located in Lüdenscheid.

I agree. I think these crosses may be Assmanns in the same way Godets are Godets -- they may not have been made by Assmann, but bought by them and marked for them. I wrote this in the first post:

I do not discount the possibility that Assmann did not manufacture this cross, but rather bought it from another maker and marked (and marketed) them as Assmanns. To me, this is functionally the same as being an Assmann.

...and I increasingly suspect it is true.

[5tefan]

Hi,

Today I've got this Ek1 1914 marked L54 from a militaria show ;-)
Maybe a good find, what shows that L54 has nothing to do with Assmann.

Imo an ultra rare EK1 1914 LDO marked Variant!

Here are the Assmann's : http://www.ek1-dna.de/unknown-maker-...or-l-54---.php

[ben bijker]

Douglas: I also think the A&S mark is post-war.

Stefan: I don't quite get your point, how does it prove that L/54 had nothing to do with Assmann?
Maybe I am overlooking something, but IMO Assmann never made ek's, but bought them from S&H.

Best regards,
Ben