Knight Cross - Any good?

[Legil]

Hello Robert.....sorry....in my opinion the transient phase in your sheet should be postwar ........ .more.........dear Leroy....the cross you show to me from the data-bank is (sorry) imo a postwar copy by St&L,too. It is no joke!!!

Dear Robert, dear Leroy....I have read a lot of posts from you to this theme....therefore I think strong, that you (and also many other people in this forum) really don't know, what's the truth with the St&L story.

As I wrote before, I had in the 70th contact to old german collectors....in these circle it was very very well known, how you can sort post45 from pre45 pieces made by St&L!

The truth is, that a serious company like St&L marked their post45 pieces with a mark!!!!!

Please.... look on the mint cross from the data-bank you show to me.....

.....in sum there are eight black painted fields on the crossarms....four on the backside and four on the obverse....in sum eight...

.....these cross is a mint cross.....seven painted fields are "mint" but one field is not mint under the color....

...please tell me.....what do you see on the eigth's black inner painted field, which looks other than the other seven....and please say me, what is the reason for this manipulation on a mint cross....what was the intention for these manipulation.....

and now study other St&L crosses in these area (but you must have good photos and you must look very sharp) and you will find the following. (three groups)

+++First group POSTWAR - Many crosses have at the same area significant manipulations and partial repaintings to hide the circle mark! Sometimes very good work by the fakers and you con only decide if you have the piece in hand.

Some crosses have a very good remove of the circle.mark and were complete painted new on the observe side...but not on the back side. A good example of such a front repainted 800/4 is in the "Iron time" on page 353"

On some crosses you can see the circle relatively well and clear....look on the cross in this threat from Robert.....and you see....the price was fair!

+++Second group Postwar - on unmanipulated crosses you will find on the observe/left arm a very light circle in the middle of the core under the paint!

+++Third group - no manipulation and no circle mark "HIGHLY POSSIBLE ORIGINAL"

Once again...!!!.the work of the fakers who removed the circle mark is sometimes very good.!!!!

If you look in Dietrichs book on page 14....and you take a glas (Lupe) , you can see on these core the rests of the mark...rests.....because also on these core somone had tryed to manipulate these area....look with a glas and you can see these manipulation-traces.

People who do these know more...they knowed, that these light circle-mark on the core was the marking for post45cores......all the people who manipulated all these crosses in these area knowed what is the post45 St&L mark.

++++ A light circle in the middle of the obverse/left arm under the paint +++++

Leroy ..look to the Barter Boards discussion where you discover the zwittercross....imo from the photos clearly post45...look to the area......Dietrichs first impreeion ín these discussion was promt right---he said fake----....look to the crosses in the data-bank....this data-bank is regarding the St&L crosses a "fake gallery".

Heinz

P.S. As I said before....St&L was very busy after war...and therefore you will see, that an original St&L cross is rar!

[Leroy]

I am confused by what you say, Heinz.

First, a cross had to have the "dipping 3" in the "1813" to be real, according to you. Now, that seems to have changed, and the real secret is a "circle" mark on postwar crosses. This mark, you say, is one that fakers go to great effort to conceal (by re-painting).

Here is the cross from the database I showed earlier. It belongs to a member in the UK. Please tell us where the secret mark is and what has been re-painted.

Thanks!

[Rich G]

Where is this 'circle' that is being referred to? It someone doesn't point it out then it's all a bit pointless.

[Tony T-S]

It LOOKS from the photo above that there is a circle under the paint on the 9 oclock arm in roughly the middle of the arm. Its very feint and could well be just the photo. If you draw a line from the edge of the swaz to the "9 oclock" position of the frame, you can just make something out above the line.... at least I can on my screen. Though I'm actually being serious it all sounds a bit like a UFO like really. I vaguely think you can see the same sort of thing on the cross at the beginning of the thread, but I'm not really sure.

Having said that, surely people researching these crosses so deeply would have been aware of such "fakes" marks before this.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I vaguely think you can see the same sort of thing on the cross at the beginning of the thread, but I'm not really sure.

Maybe it needs to be full moon and you have to be under an oak tree?

[Rich G]

Maybe it needs to be full moon and you have to be under an oak tree?

I can't see anything either.

[ekhunter]

Confused

I'm a little confused about all this secret circle stuff! What in the world is he talking about? I read Heinz's post last night and thought that I may have had one too many Warsteiners!!

[Matthieu]

Perhaps he is confusing with the later Souval swastika core ?
These are known to have an "o" mark on the 3 o'clock arm.

[Tony T-S]

Dietrich, I think its in Rivendell rather than under the oak tree As I said, a bit UFO like.

Looking further at the first cross perhaps something was there once or whatever, but anyone who was trying to remove a tell tail sign would surely paint over it again, not leave it as it appears now.

[Legil]

Maybe it needs to be full moon and you have to be under an oak tree?

Hello Dietrich....nein...ich denke wir brauchen gute Bilder und Leute die mit der richtigen Sorgfalt genau auf die richtigen Stellen schauen und dann die richtigen Rückschlüsse ziehen!

OK...as I see, you all have probelms to find the circle mark!

First let me show you with the following example the accurate position and the approximate size of the circle-mark from S&L on theit post45 cores.

Please look in the data-bank! Sorry Bob Lyons....Congratulations

Your cross is the winner in two categories of the

[B]Competition
"Hide your post45 S&L fake KC in the WAF data-bank"


First categorie "Hide the the circle well"

Second categorie "Best repainting of a faked S&L knight cross"

In my opinion...the completely right winner cross..1A+...the guys own the knowing how a Grandmaster should work perfect when he want to hide this mark!

Othe prices in these categories are goes to:

Dave Kane
Thomas E Hansen
Colorado
mdj
etc.

Congratulations

Hello Tony you are absolutely right....in the middle-line of the cross...... same position.... look the winner cross!

....

always in the same position and same size....it was engraved in the core die!!!!!!

You must learn to see this mark on a photo....with a juwelier-glas you will have no problem to examine this area. If you want to look for pictures in a book...for example Dietrichs book...use a good glas and look from various positions.

You must accept, that this circle mark is very smal and original under the paint and therefore it is difficult to see it easy....but now do you know, in which position you must search.....you can find it very well on many photos....

regarding manipulated pieces....as I told you before....Grandmasters of counterfeiting wipe out the St&L Postwar-Stigma!

You will find from smoothing-works until jewlliers-flat-chisel-works....all in the same position.

Matthieu...if you have saw this circle in this position....you have saw any St&L PostwarCore type...no matter in which cross....it is a fake! Posible made by St&L.

Hello Ekhunter... I am wondering...dont you know the postwar Ek-variant from St&L...it has an circle in the 9'oclock arm in the upper corner!

Greetings Heinz

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hello Dietrich....nein...ich denke wir brauchen gute Bilder und Leute die mit der richtigen Sorgfalt genau auf die richtigen Stellen schauen und dann die richtigen Rückschlüsse ziehen!

..und Du weisst also, was die richtigen Rückschlüsse sind? Natuerlich ohne jeglichen Beweis, so wie mit den Dreiern! Von einem Dr. Ing. koennte man eigentlich etwas fundierteres erwarten. Gibt es nun Doktorarbeiten, wo man die Prüfer auffordern kann, die Sache selber herauszufinden? Nur so 'ne Frage....


Heinz,

only some very simple questions which should be very easy to be answered:

- why is a circle (if it is there at all) a sign of a fake?

- why would the "master faker" put it on (if it is there anyway) and then try to mask it so nobody can see it? Would it not been easier to put nothing on at all?

- what happened to all the other unshakeable theories?

- why does you all over sudden "know" all this and generation of collectors were just plain stupid?Including the recipients?

- why are you not capable of posting one, only one, picture?

- why do the members here have to find out what you seem to already know? Is this a game of "Who can spot the circle?"

Dietrich


PS: I looked into my data base and I did not see circles. Neither on A nor B. And believe me, I have really good pictures with the highest resolution. And lots of them! I even looked from diffent positions .... Nothing!

[ekhunter]

Post war S&L

Heinz,
Familiar with dent rows on S&L crosses, but I guess I'm ignorant to the circle.
Russel

[Legil]

Hello Dietrich

....as I told you before I remember me a few month ago (after the last discussions here in the forum), that I have heard this first in the early 70th from old collectors...it is a long time ago ....in the last month I have phoned with old fellows from this times! Than I have study many photos!

Please take a "normal" magnifying glass and look in your book on page 130!

Sorry ...I have no problem to see this very fine circle-mark clear! on these sure post45 St&L cross.

On many other crosses I observe some remarkable tendencies of manipulation always in these same area.

Matthiue reported, that he know this circle mark,too. I belive, that here in the forum are more people who know this circle mark from Steinhauer on many other awards from Steinhauer post45...for example on EK's, flight-awards....etc.

First I reported in the forum about a different core from Steinhauer....now... second I report that you can find a fine circle mark on St&L postwar crosses in the middle of the 9'oclock arm under the paint! ....that all!

....of course...the forum members make their own examinations and conclusions!

Greetings Heinz

[Dietrich Maerz]

I kindly ask you to answer my very easy questions!

And I do not ssee any circle in any of the photos I have and I am actually very happy that I don't.

Dietrich

[sdesember]

I see them! But, I think they are akin to the circles (watermarkings?) on any paper bills.