New arrivals from the bombed Zimmermann factory

[Robert T.]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+swords&page=2

I am adding RonR’s 21 example to the swords “flaw” comparison (red circles). Ron’s Set shows a lot of wear to the dots and handle kurled bands.

Robert

[ChrisJ]

Looks convincing to me Robert.

So what we are proposing then is the FO swords from worn dies being used on "Godet" EL/Sword sets, and with the planchets being strikings testers for a replacement die ?

I am at a loss to explain the back plate effect (for want of a better description). I believe that the 1mm off cuts are the debris from a trimming die having cut Oakleaves from a striking, and not cutting out of a "plate". I can only assume that the different angle of the cut edge of the Oakleaves can give this effect in certain light depending on the degree of hand finishing.

[Robert T.]

So what we are proposing then is the FO swords from worn dies being used on "Godet" EL/Sword sets, and with the planchets being strikings testers for a replacement die ?

Hi Chris,

I agree!

Note: Most members here did not like RonR’s set back in 2007.

Robert

[Rich G]

Either I've missed something or I'm not reading between the lines but is the suggestion that these are hollow with a backing plate???

On something so small I just can't imagine that to be the case but it is truly fascinating.

[ChrisJ]

Either I've missed something or I'm not reading between the lines but is the suggestion that these are hollow with a backing plate???

On something so small I just can't imagine that to be the case but it is truly fascinating.

Well...I did post that (thinking aloud, if you will)...but I don't seriously think either to be true.




I think that some excellent work by the participants in this thread (myself excluded) has raised some fascinating scenarios:

• "Godet" swords (those attached to OL/Swords) might have been made from Zimmerman FO sword dies
• "Godet" swords are almost certainly (IMO anyway) one piece contruction

There is obviously no guarnatee that the items we see in the first posting from Klaus are 100% from the Zimmerman burnt horde (unless Klaus has undisclosed evidence), but IF they are then it might mean that Zimmerman were engaged in fabricating Godet oakleaves and swords, and were cutting new sword dies.

Frankly, it all seems perfectly logical to me....however, joining all of these dots does not rule out the possibility on the last point that there is some manipulation by the dark side.

[Leroy]

Frankly, it all seems perfectly logical to me....however, joining all of these dots does not rule out the possibility on the last point that there is some manipulation by the dark side.

To me, it's one way OR the other, with no in-between.

[ChrisJ]

To me, it's one way OR the other, with no in-between.

If you mean beyond a reasonable doubt then I'm with you !

[Robert T.]

"Godet" swords are almost certainly (IMO anyway) one piece contruction.

I would agree using from the examples shown below that the thick swords planchet was probably die struck on both sides. The yellow circles evidently highlight the insufficiently trimmed borders…. Another rushed job…


And I will not elaborate on the “”

Robert

[Dietrich Maerz]

I might be late here but I had no access to my main computer. It looks like this thread has run out of speed but I would like to add the following:

- C.F. Zimmermann had at least four different "20" stamps. A sampling can be found in ther book "The German Cross". None of the stamps is the same that can be found on genuine sets of the Type 2 Oakleaves or Oakleaves with Swords. The "2" is different.

- none of the genuine Oakleave and/or Sword sets I have handled, photographed, investigated under a regular microscope and under SEM had a back plate not where they hollow. They were all made of solid silver.

Dietrich

[streptile]

C.F. Zimmermann had at least four different "20" stamps. A sampling can be found in ther book "The German Cross". None of the stamps is the same that can be found on genuine sets of the Type 2 Oakleaves or Oakleaves with Swords. The "2" is different.

Hi Dietrich,

I think I was sloppy with my words -- I didn't mean the stamps were literally exactly the same, just the same style of "2" with either a "0" (for Zimmermann) or a "1" (for Godet). I realize I should have been more clear.

[streptile]

Can someone help me understand why it is surprising to find swords on a set of "21" oaks?

Just a brief summary of the issue and the timeline as we currently know it, for those of us (i.e., me) who don't know this info.

By the way, fellas, thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.

[Rich G]

I would agree using from the examples shown below that the thick swords planchet was probably die struck on both sides. The yellow circles evidently highlight the insufficiently trimmed borders…. Another rushed job…


And I will not elaborate on the “”

Robert

Personally, I think the 'line' is an optical illusion created by the light, shadow and wear to the edge of the piece, nothing more.

[Thomas Durante]

Personally, I think the 'line' is an optical illusion created by the light, shadow and wear to the edge of the piece, nothing more.

My thoughts as well, the polished, beveled edge makes it look like a separate plate was attached.

Also, if it were hollow, it stands to reason it would be much lighter than solid-silver pieces (even though they are possibly different makers).

Tom

[Dietrich Maerz]

... Also, if it were hollow, it stands to reason it would be much lighter than solid-silver pieces (even though they are possibly different makers). Tom

Plus it would not have taken until 2012 in November to find that out ....

[Robert T.]

Chris never seriously believed that it was hollow. The "sheared set" that started this thread isn't hollow....

Robert