New arrivals from the bombed Zimmermann factory

[Dietrich Maerz]

Well, the have a look at your set ( if you still have one) and look for the dividing line that needs to be there where the one side of stamping meets the other - if you think so.
Not to talk about other things ...

[ChrisJ]

I do know what Godet swords look like, and if these are not Godet then they are very close.
And for the record the line depends on the method of removing the flash from the stamping

I'm viewing on an iPad, so you must be seeing more than me....would you like to expand a little ?

[Leroy]

Is there a suggestion that the Swords on "Godet" pieces were cast?

[ChrisJ]

Not by me !

[Leroy]

[Dietrich Maerz]

No Chris, I will not expand ...
If you think this is a Godet set than this is perfectly fine with me....

Dietrich

[ChrisJ]

Okay. But for me they are close enough to take a second look.

Klaus, is it possible for you to show close up shots of the sword hilt dots, and the sword handles.

Regards
Chris

[ChrisJ]

After using using an HD printer and comparing to an original, these swords did not show expected telltale Godet features.

But I wish I had them in hand !..very interesting. I'm not sure exactly what we are looking at here.

It has been my view for many years that the change in form from the L/50 to the 21 Oakleaves was likely due to subcontracting out by Godet, and who better than Zimmerman ?

[Leroy]

Thanks for that review, Chris!

If all the unfinished pieces and planchets are, in fact, from the Zimmermann "burned" groupings, and if the finished (but sheared in half) set (with the 21 marking) is real and was found there, too, could it be that Zimmermann was doing "trial strikes" for something in connection with Godet? A lot of "ifs", I know, but I would sure like to know more about these.

[ChrisJ]

That is possible of course. And the cut in two swords could have been so defaced as it didn't meet the criteria. Part of the process of die cutting/finishing ?

(I can almost hear Dietrich reaching for the keyboard )

The swords are uncannily close to Godets, apart from some fine detail.

Keep brain storming !

[Rich G]

Perhaps they were copying the Godet swords to make their own oak/S but the factory was destroyed before that could take momentum.

Rich

[Dietrich Maerz]

:

"Is it possible, as Ancient Alien Researchers theorized, that ....."

That is how nearly every explanation of one of my most beloved TV series starts. And yes, it is possible! But is it probable? No! But still nice pictures and intellectually provoking.

In this case I personally (and it is really just me and my way of thinking) would first try to find as good and as well founded answers to the following questions:

- are the pieces REALLY from the company of C.E. Zimmermann?
- are the pieces REALLY made before May 1945?
- were the pieces REALLY ALL found together?

These are some basic questions and I certainly do understand that they might not be answered completely or maybe not at all. But if some of the theories voiced here are based on the unproven assumption that this is Zimmermann and that this is all found together and this is all pre May 1945, then it reminds me of Ancient Aliens theorists.

"is it possible that Zimmermann was the supplier of the Godet Oakleaves with Swords?" Sure! Is it probable? No! Because there is plenty of evidence that Godet did so and none believable whatsoever that Zimmermann did. None at all! So far!

I suggest to answer the three questions above first - one way or the other - before theorizing further. Next thing is that Zimmermann also made the Juncker RK! All it takes is a burned Juncker with the story that it was found in the rubbles of Pforzheim and that is all that is needed!

And I can add one, too:

is it possible that the strikes are made for the very first set of Oakleaves with Swords, but were never finished because Goering called and chancelled the order? Is that why the Godet Set was destroyed by Mr. Zimmermann out of rage because of the lost order. Is it possible he then burned all the parts in the basement?

Sure is it possible!

[ChrisJ]

Tut tut Dietrich

This is supposed to be a forum, or at least it was, where there was lively discussion and where all sorts of possible scenarios were voiced. It was fun and informative.

Sarcasm can be fun too..... But so is lateral thinking, and much more productive.

The questions you say we should be posing are completely impossible to answer, as you are well aware, unless some persons are forthcoming with information, which frankly is unlikely.

So your advice then is just to shut up and discuss the banal.

I seem to remember a little while ago what seemed absurd was proven to be in fact nearer to the truth than we could have imagined.

This is what a discussion forum is for, isn't it ?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Well, that is the difference between you and me then!

I would never say to shut up, but I just want to warn against what has happened in the last 60 years in this hobby: everybody and his brother came up with something and no proof behind it! Godet dies survived, Juncker dies survived, K&Q never produced during the war, Foerster & Barth made a KC, the 935-4 were awarded in 1939, the 800-4 were awarded in June 1944 and so on and so on. Easy and fast to say, nearly impossible to get rid of.

I contributed my share with the Rounder to that confusion but I have learned my lesson.

And it makes no sense to me to say that my logical question are impossible to answer (maybe they are not?) and therefore one ignores them and just run with a thesis somebody offered. What would you speculate if Klaus would have said the parts were found in Berlin, or Munich, or New York?

I object to your notion that I want to supress discussion or that I answer with sarkasm. I only want to make my point clear.

You can speculate here that Zimmermann supplied Godet with Swords, no problem! But don't be surprised if you are asked for any proof at all. Just a little bit!

This is a discussion forum, isn't it? And a serious one at that!

But I don't want to spoil your fun here! So I will shut up!

[Tom B]

Sad truth !

Hello, What we have is....Speculation, opinions,stories. What we do NOT have is documentation from the firms involved. Written records (good luck with that) or eyeball testimony from people who worked in these firms (even MORE good luck with that !) We can' t even get S&L to share information about 1957 production ! The fun of this is (and I think it's still fun) is to keep on talking & Looking for that elusive evidence, however TIME is not on our side! Tom