RK Timeline

[ChrisJ]

I've been away for a while, and during the intervening period have been giving some thought to the RK timeline theories and I'd invite discussion on the following points.

For me one of the key factors is the introduction of the PKZ number, and was it applied to RK's at a different date to other badges and awards. The current accepted theory is that the reason we don't see any PKZ marked crosses is that the application date was later for RKs, or not complied with. I'd go as far as to state that there is an absurdly low number of RKs so marked...but to conclude this was due to a later application date or non compliance ignores other obvious possibilities. The most obvious being that the chancellery had quite sufficient stocks post 1941 after absorbing the retail stocks to last a couple of years and diet need to restock..

Does this seem a reasonable assumption ?..to me yes.

The follow on from this then, is that all non PKZ marked crosses were made at least in 1942 or earlier, which represents the majority we encounter today.

I'll stop at this juncture to allow comment (there is more to come)

Regards
Chris

[ChrisJ]

Not much interest it seems (how times change)

Okay, moving on then if for a moment we accept the scenario in my first mail, from 1942 onwards the official manufacturers of the RK almost certainly had stocks of RK parts, and probably made up crosses in anticipation of orders that would sooner or later be forthcoming.

We therefore would have a disconnect between award date and production date of the completed crosses, and also a disconnect to a certain extent between the production of the parts and the assembly of the crosses.

I'll let that sink in before continuing.

[Leroy]

Actually, Chris, always interest! It would help if I had seen your post.

I think there is great merit in what you are saying. Earlier this year, I found a photo of a LW RK winner taken shortly after his award in June, 1944. The cross he was awarded was a 3/4 ring, so obviously award date has little if anything to do with production date. It may have something to do with the "first in - last out" stocking method. In any case, I have a feeling that the PKZ had plenty of crosses for a long time.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Chris,

Under the very reasonable assumption, that the PKZ numbers were introduced at one point in time, the still assumed dated of mid 1944, postulated by Williamson without explanation, is wrong.
It is clear that for the DK and others, the date is far earlier, around mid- to late 1942.
The appearance of PKZ- marked RKs starting in mid-1944, as postualated by Williamson 10 years ago, is a result of the stock of the PKZ of the collected crosses running out. The late 3/4 Ring award date supports this, also other factors, such as overall award numbers.
PKZ-marked DKs and east Medals show up a lot earlier than mid 1944 and one has to look at the whole complex, not just pick one decoration in order to come up with a point in time.

Dietrich

[ChrisJ]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Okay, the next step in my thought process.

We have the chancellery with large stocks to last till later in the war, for arguments sake lets say late 1943/early 1944. Replenishment starts with orders being placed and delivered. The RK's supplied are PKZ marked, but might have been from parts made 2 years before. These RK's are mixed in with the balance of the old stock.

So, it should not be in the least surprising for example to find "B" type S&L frames with 800 4 markings bringing awarded chronologically before a simple "A" frame 800 S&L, or for a flawed K&Q to be awarded before an unflawed.....as reasonable as a 3/4 ring being awarded in 1944 as Leroy's has drawn our attention to.

The point of this thread has been to suggest that we must not be too dogmatic about any piece or anomaly that does not fit into a nice ordered sequence.

[Dietrich Maerz]

You have the name(s) or date(s) of awarded 800-4? And I don't mean the phonybdates from Niemann in June1944 in Normany?
(Surely it is possible, but to go from possibility to fact it needs unshakeable proof)

[ChrisJ]

Dietrich, of course I don't have names and dates. I'm putting forward a theory that covers a possibility that should be considered (in my opinion).

[Dietrich Maerz]

Absolutely!
But as you know I always will err on the side of caution. Too many bad things have been sold with "theories" over the years. And they still are. Case in point: new Book about the EK with a full page presentation of the von Schulenburg fake (Iron Time) as an example not only of a Knights Cross but also as one about the terrible side of the history of the Knights Cross - just as the faker intended. And on displayin the Berlin Historical Museum ( and it will always stay there for all to see that a dipping ring fake is no fake ......)
Thatis how a official museum helps to sell fakes!

Dietrich

[Gew44]

Just one question:
is an unshakeable proof if I show the date and the article wrote above "Schwert und Spaten" for this introduction PKZ marking......if this can help.

Thanks

[Dietrich Maerz]

I would love to see and read that. That would settle a lot of speculations!

[Leroy]

Just one question:
is an unshakeable proof if I show the date and the article wrote above "Schwert und Spaten" for this introduction PKZ marking......if this can help.

Thanks

Yes! Please post it here!

[Gew44]

Ok
I will post there asap.

The publications are weekly since 1935 until 1945

I found this.....

[Gew44]

The price list of cross

Two prices --> one for PKF --> one for retail.


Only a small portion.....

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hello Max,

Is what you posted the evidence you were talking about? Or is there more to come? It is already proven beyond any doubt that the PKZ numbers were in use by late 1942. If there is any evidence it would most likely date from before that date, most likely mid 1942 or so.

Best regards,

Dietrich

[Gew44]

Hello Max,

Is what you posted the evidence you were talking about? Or is there more to come? It is already proven beyond any doubt that the PKZ numbers were in use by late 1942. If there is any evidence it would most likely date from before that date, most likely mid 1942 or so.

Best regards,

Dietrich

Hello Dietrich,
no is there more to come..... I read this PKZ numbers on this Newspaper, and are around 1942.
Unfortunaly I lost where placed and my German not is so good (to traslate) , are all .PDF files, and this slow down my research but I will continue.

That I posted is last retail price of 1944, and that's an "addendum" or extra respect that talking about, and show 2 prices, 1 for PKZ & 1 for retail.

I found another, IMHO, interesting doc during this research (not link up with PKZ Nummer) , if this help:

MfG aus Italien