oaks and swords on estand

[Richard]

Chris, the chances of me ever having a set of Oaks with swords in my collection with or without provenance are nil. My only point was that if I had that kind of $, I still would never buy "just a set of Oaks" without there being some trace of provenance. The value, at least for my purposes, on an award this high seems to die completely if it is just a medal in a box with no real history behind it other than it was produced prior to 1945. With only that kind of info, it becomes nothing but a piece of metal that I can brag about how much it is worth and how rare it is. I can do that with too many other awards that don't cost near as much but may not carry the mystique (such as a Knight's cross of the KVK, a Reichssieger badge of the National Trade competition, a Heer Paratrooper badge, etc.). If I am going to spend this type of money and not have provenance, I would prefer to buy 10 items that are just as rare but are priced way below their rarity factor.

I have to disagree with you that these items are underpriced as there are too many other items that are just as rare or rarer that are priced at a fraction of these awards. It is just that demand and publicity has never caught up with them as it has with the Oaks. When you really look at these awards, they really aren't much to look at in comparison to even some common awards that are out there. If aesthetics were the driving factor, these would be at the bottom of the food chain. That, of course, is my opinion and I am sure that most will disagree. But we all shell out our own money and have to decide to spend it on what we feel gets us the most enjoyment for those dollars. The joy of collecting is not in what something is worth, but in the pleasure we get in acquiring something we really enjoy.

Richard V

[ChrisJ]

HI Richard,

Yep... up to a point I agree.... but for me (and I suspect many others) Swords to the Oakleaves and RK will hold more interest (and value commerically) than for example a RK to KVK without Swords, which are in fact rarer.

No..I was not comparing to items within our area of collecting...but I also collect British awards....a VC (more than 2000 awarded) would be hard to find at below 180,000 Dollars these days...and they are not the most visually impressive of medals are they.

With so few Swords awarded the likelyhood is that there are more unissued examples around....but even having said that they are still very rare indeed and I do not consider the current prices reached surprising.

Only my opinion.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Hi Richard,

With all respect I believe there will always be a major part of the collecting world that has not the possibility to make a personal judgement on the originality of rarer pieces when offered.

This is simply because they are not used to see or handle these items frequently.
It's only by handling and examening these artifacts ,one will be able to make his own judgement.

Why do you think so few of high end pieces ar shown on this forum?...do you think they are not available?
The only problem is that the owners of these rarer pieces don't want their pieces discussed on a forum ,by people who have never handled or seen such items, and probably never will.
There are A LOT of high end collectors who are only visiting the forum but never get in to discussions.
Take now the sword set offered on the e-stand. This set is unquestionable, 100% original. Some people turned it down to a piece of silver.

I can assure you, the collectors who have experience with these items, won't have to ask others for opinions on Oaks or Swords, they are so easy if you know your stuff.

But fairytail is so nice to listen to....

Pieter.

[Peter Wiking]

Pieter Verbruggen.

I think this part is a bit unfair:
"Why do you think so few of high end pieces ar shown on this forum?...do you think they are not available?
The only problem is that the owners of these rarer pieces don't want their pieces discussed on a forum ,by people who have never handled or seen such items, and probably never will."

Even if we can never own a collectible we should still be able to have opinions and discuss around it ? Its sad that we have a "secret" collector club out there that are afraid of sharing what they know. If "we" know so little about ultra rare collectibles, please come out of the woodwork and show us.

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[magprint]

Pieter Verbruggen.

I think this part is a bit unfair:
"Why do you think so few of high end pieces ar shown on this forum?...do you think they are not available?
The only problem is that the owners of these rarer pieces don't want their pieces discussed on a forum ,by people who have never handled or seen such items, and probably never will."

Even if we can never own a collectible we should still be able to have opinions and discuss around it ? Its sad that we have a "secret" collector club out there that are afraid of sharing what they know. If "we" know so little about ultra rare collectibles, please come out of the woodwork and show us.

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

Peter,

I will let Pieter answer for himself, of course; but from my point of view there are a several reasons why I don't post photos of many of my items on the forum.

Firstly, I really don't want "the world" to know what I have - mainly for security reasons. I know two seperate incidents in Europe where houses were broken into and items taken at gunpoint.

Secondly, as you can see by this particular thread some people have "different" theories about the origins of some of these items. It is not enjoyable for me to spend time justifying items in my collection, or in a friends collection, that another person claims are fake or "restrikes". I am sure you would not enjoy this either. I certainly realize everyone has the right to their own opinion; but exercising ones right, in this way, is at best - not polite. Therefore I find it easier and less "high maintainence" just not to post pictures of those items. If someone posts their personal item with the distinct purpose "is this good" than that, of course, is a different matter.

Thirdly, if we discuss items in an open forum to the point that particular nuances of design are discussed we are helping the fakers with their task. The next batch of fakes will have every problem we point out fixed. Sooner or later the fakers are going to get these things close to 100% correct - why should we speed the process.

These of course are only my opinions. I look forward to Pieter's (and any others) viewpoint.

Regards,
Rich Moran

[Peter Wiking]

magprint.
I agree that the fakers are one major problem. I just that hope that we can in way or another still share at this forum.

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[Pieter Verbruggen]

I completely agree with Rich's points of view...I couldn't have explained it better...

Pieter.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Pieter Verbruggen.

I think this part is a bit unfair:
"Why do you think so few of high end pieces ar shown on this forum?...do you think they are not available?
The only problem is that the owners of these rarer pieces don't want their pieces discussed on a forum ,by people who have never handled or seen such items, and probably never will."

Even if we can never own a collectible we should still be able to have opinions and discuss around it ? Its sad that we have a "secret" collector club out there that are afraid of sharing what they know. If "we" know so little about ultra rare collectibles, please come out of the woodwork and show us.

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

...correct Peter...but there is a difference in showing and giving all the details away.
And as a surplus what do we get, comments and fairytail stories of people who better participate in threads on zink wound badges.

I don't feel myself better than any other collector but this is the reality.

Pieter.

[Skipper Greenwade]

Bravo!

Well said Rich!

I have watched this thread with great interest - and more than a little amusement. While I understand the frustration Peter Wiking expresses in his last post, I have seen far too many instances when someone with the best of intentions will post pictures of an item only to be taken to task and 'sweated' under the bright lights of re-strike and back-alley conspiracy theories.

After a while, one simply gets tired of defending items that (at least in my case) were carefully selected and purchased after a great deal of actual, hands-on comparison and examination, usually at the major shows in the presence of other collectors (and a few dealers) with years, if not decades, of experience.

Say what you will about dealers. While, like so many things in life, there are some good ones and there are some very bad ones out there, I continue to place a great deal of value on the opinions of a few that I know who have actually made a living at this for twenty or thirty years and have handled dozens of RK's, Oakleaves and other rarities and hundreds of other items - some good and some not-so-good. When I'm shopping for a rare piece, I would rather have five minutes of hands-on time with it at the MAX or the Show-of-Shows than a CD full of scans. The last thing I need or want is to be second-guessed by someone who begins a thread with..."Opinions wanted on this black wound badge". Before anyone deems that harsh, let me say that they are certainly entitled to their opinions and are more than welcome to ask questions - that's a big part of what this Forum is about, but I agree wholeheartedly with those who have stated that that's what keeps many knowledgeable, experienced collectors from not just participating in, but contributing to, these discussions.

As for Rich's third point: IMHO, calls for disclosure of every detail of an original item play right into the hands of those who are hard at work perfecting the latest generation of fakes. I recently had the good fortune to pick up a rare medal. I sought the advice - via PM - of a Forum member much more familiar with the item in question than myself. Once I had the item in hand (note, no scans!), I examined it carefully, using the tips provided me, and determined that I had beaten the long odds and acquired an original example. The characteristics I was looking for were very distinctive, but would be very easy to duplicate if one was of such a mind.

Once again bowing to Peter's frustrations, it is indeed sad that there is a "secret" collector club (not the term I would use, but I get the point) but sadder still is the fact that there are people - perhaps lurking about on this Forum - ready to pounce, and that - consequently - freely sharing that kind of information openly would be a big mistake.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest!

Back under my rock now,
Skip

[Pieter Verbruggen]

...you hit the nail Skip...


....People discussing a Voos...not knowing the difference between Holler and a Eickhorn crossguard...But yes we are a select group not?
Pieter.

[tom hansen]

I have found on this forum that the experts in these areas are more than approachable and very helpful through the PM system. I can understand the reluctance to contribute information which may be used by individuals with bad intentions. I have been very appreciative of the experts insights into these issues, as this is the only way we all can learn about these items. Likewise, I think even "bush leaguers" such as myself can contribute by posting images of items and posting questions about the pieces in general.


In my area of work, we are trained to have issues intensely evaluated to facilitate ultimately arriving at the truth. Many times, there are theories or beliefs to which someone has an emotional or financial stake, that are refuted through intensive analysis, testing, and questioning. In that theme, I would think that I would want as many evaluations as possible to contribute to the collective knowledge of the group regarding medals and awards. If there was silence, would it have ever been determined that L/12 RKs were in fact pre-1945? With verification, the value of items in question increases. I would think this woule be beneficial for those currently holding items where there are academic questions concerning dating and origin. Thanks again to those experienced collectors who are helping us all learn more about these topics.

[Brian S]

...correct Peter...but there is a difference in showing and giving all the details away.
And as a surplus what do we get, comments and fairytail stories of people who better participate in threads on zink wound badges.

I don't feel myself better than any other collector but this is the reality.

Pieter.

A very interesting thread. I have been blessedly away from computers in Yellowstone Park for several days. Amazing I have been warned to 'sit down' if I have nothing to say to prove what I have seen for years, these '21' oaks on '57 crosses. I started collecting in '66 and at that time wanted no part of the '57 series. My mistake! I'd be rich now. I must sit down, collect zinkers according to Pieter, you guys have been slapping each other on the back as if that in itself is proof. I stand in awe of you three. For me, I need read nothing more than the collective wisdom of the three wise men, if they agree, it must be so.