Strange Merten U-boat story in German auction ?

[frankandfrank]

Please look in www.hermann-historica.com

There is No: 8957 = knights cross with oakleaves Merten !


On the photos you can see:

knights cross = as new - stamped 800 -
oakleaves = worn (?) - stamped Silber L/50


in Adrian Forman s book: Bravery Courage and Valour
Page 275

knights cross = worn - stamped 800
oakleaves = worn - stamped 900 - 21


2 different crosses 2 different oakleaves !

2 different knights crosses with 2 different oakleaves both are belonged to Merten ?Or 2 knights crosses with oakleaves belonged to nobody !

What is now correct ?

[münster]

Luck of the draw???

[Dietrich Maerz]

It must not necessarily be the case that one is wrong. It could also be that both have been misinformed. The more important question is this: are both sets genuine articles of the Third Reich? I think the Formann set is and I can't see the pictures at HH.

The only thing that can be done here is going by pure statistical values of award dates and oakleaves type. For me a L/50 set is far more believable for an award in Nov. 42 than a 21 set. But who knows, maybe he acquired a second set form the PKZ?

It just shows the quagmire with named items ... Not the first time - will not be the last time.

Dietrich

[frankandfrank]

Ritterkreuz und Eichenlaub in herausragender Erhaltung, die Silberzarge des Ritterkreuzes gestempelt "800", geschwärzter Eisenkern, Hersteller Klein & Quenzer, Idar-Oberstein. 49 x 48,8 mm, 29,21 g. Das Eichenlaub rückseitig gestempelt "900" und "Silber L/50" für die Gebrüder Godet in Berlin, ca. 19,1 x 20,2 mm, 6,75 g. Mit ca. 46 cm langem, vernähtem und leicht getragenem Bandabschnitt im Originaletui, der Deckel leicht verzogen, unterseitig Etikett mit handschriftlicher Notiz Mertens "Original Ritterkreuz v. 13.6.1942 Nr. 1".
Merten erhielt das Eichenlaub zum Ritterkreuz noch während seiner fünften und letzten Feindfahrt, die zugleich auch seine erfolgreichste war und vom 20.8. bis 6.12.1942 dauerte. Zwischen dem 12.9. und 6.11. versenkte er dabei sieben Dampfer, einen Tanker und ein Motorschiff mit insgesamt 56.330 BRT

[Dietrich Maerz]

A K&Q Knights Cross (maybe even with the three flaws...) awarded in 1942 reminds me extremely strong at Mr. Niemann ..... certainly another "first". For sure not his awarded cross, best case a second piece.

The inscription by Mertens on the case (Original Knights Cross ... Number 1) could lead to the assumption that there was a number 2 (as an additional piece). I think that a switch with No. 2 (=K&Q) took place (or has the case the Klein & Quenzer inscription?).

Case contents can be switched and an inscription like "This is original" is not always a guarantee that the content really is original - as convincing it might sound!

[frankandfrank]

His normal knights cross - condition as new - was sold the last auction !

Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes 1939
Das Ritterkreuz in herausragender Erhaltung mit Silberzarge, gestempelt "800", und geschwärztem Eisenkern, 49,1 x 48,8 mm. Der silberne Sprungring gestempelt "800" und "65" für Klein & Quenzer, Idar-Oberstein. Gesamtgewicht 31,21 g. Mit 74 cm langem, unkonfektioniertem Bandabschnitt im Originaletui, der Deckel leicht verzogen, unterseitig Etikett mit handschriftlicher Notiz Mertens "Original Ritterkreuz v. 13. Juni 1942".

[Dietrich Maerz]

This is really funny!

Picture clearly shows NO K&Q.

[EK-collector]

you are crazy guys, however I admire you

[frankandfrank]

Perhaps more other news are coming !

[Dietrich Maerz]

The only thing that I can add it that in 1942 no Knights Crosses marked with any PKZ number and for sure at the very last none with "65" were awarded. However, the situation in certain collector circles is such that the factual knowledge about such things is far lower than the amount of money in the purse.

This is how a certain Hamburg dealer "completed" missing crosses with his seemingly unlimited supply of Klein & Quenzer. When a lot of the owners realized this procedure, he bailed. This is such a similar case .... makes me think. No COA came with it?

Someone will buy it and it seems that at least he has a genuine RK with a genuine L/50 ...

Dietrich

[StefanK.]

i wondered about the same, since Merten's knights cross in the auction is nearly brand new and it doesnt fit to the award date. I dont want say that it was not in Mertens possession, but as Dietrich showed he clearly wore a different (Juncker) KC.

Frank, is it possible to post a scan of the "Merten" cross in Foreman's book? I wonder if it is a Juncker.

many greetings.

Stefan


PS: I also wonder about the "Harlinghausen" Ritterkreuz. Harlinghausen also wore a Juncker RK, but the cross in the auction is a "late" S&L....

Greetings,
Stefan

[Bob Hritz]

I guess as long as it has a COA from a respected dealer, it will just pass as what is is described as being. I get a kick out of all the 'provenanced' Knight's Crosses and groups that rely solely on a dealer's letter or COA.

Were they postmarked from; Fantasy Island?

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

The "Merten" cross in Forman's book is a micro 800 S&L. Also looks like new, nearly no damage to the paint on the obverse and reverse. And the "21' oaks don't fit the time frame either. This set also comes with a case, but no inscription like " This is my second cross. Honestly! Merten" is mentioned.

However, a S&L is far more believable than a K&Q. But the "21" isn't!

[Kondor]

Kapitan Merten

While I am not an expert on identifying crosses from pictures, I will provide you all with a picture of Kapitan Merten with his cased oakleaves and RK. I remember the cross being stamped 800, but I didn't really look at the ring to see if there were additional markings. There was just too much to see and not enough time!!! This picture was taken in his study circa 1988.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Did he have two sets?

Dietrich