EK2 Austrian mount

[peterm]

Hi Nick!

From these pics the first ribbon seems to be made from a normal long ribbon. Second one is post-war production for sure, but I think You knew that before.

Kind regards, Peter

[Woolgar]

Thanks Peter

Nick

[Douglas 5]

Peter: ... a strange question... How wide is/was a ribbon that was used for a pre 39 and post 45 trifold Austrian award ? And were any 'German award' ribbons made to a wider size post war for a proper size trifold mount ?

Douglas

[peterm]

Peter: ... a strange question... How wide is/was a ribbon that was used for a pre 39 and post 45 trifold Austrian award ? And were any 'German award' ribbons made to a wider size post war for a proper size trifold mount ?

Douglas

Hi Douglas!

This is not a strange question, but not this easy to answer, especially with my English... But I'll try using EK II 1939 as exemple:

In general this award was presented with a 30mm-normal-long-ribbon.
To produce a "trifold" You need at least a 40mm wide ribbon, otherwise (and this can be seen in this thread) the trifold will become too small.

As Austria used the trifolds (except WWII) from the 19th century up to now, it is not possible to tell e.g. "an Austrian trifold has a 40mm wide ribbon". There are also ribbons with MORE than 40mm, but You hardly will find some with LESS than 40mm (except for minis).

After WWII 40mm wide ribbons were made for many 3rd-Reich awards (e.g. for EK II, as You see posted in this thread), because many veterans in Austria used to wear their awards in this traditional manner.

The ONLY 3rd-Reich-award for which I have seen trifolds which for sure were made in Austria BEFORE 1938 are those for "Hindenburg"-crosses, but these also are very, very rare, because most Austrian soldiers got their "Honor crosses" later and used it for the "medal-bars". The one, I post in this thread, MAYBE ist pre-1938, but I'm not sure.

I hope, this answers Your questions!

Kind regards, Peter

[Chet Sowersby]

Peter,
Thank you for making this thread informative. Besides viewing all of the examples posted I've learned something also.

Chet

[StefanK.]

Thanks peter to clearify the story about trifold ww2 medals. Of course i am totally with you and i also believe that there were not produced ANY trifolds for ww2 awards during the 2nd ww. There was simply no need to produce e.g. a trifold EK2 ribbon that was wider than a standard ribbon but smaller than a RK ribbon because the regulations concerning uniforms were the same for bavarians, styrians, carinthians, hessians and all the other "germans" within the boarders of the Reich, at least from the beginnin of the war (after march 1938 there WERE indeed some cases of irregulative wear of uniforms, eg austrian soldiers wore their Bundesheer-uniform with the german reichsadler, or they even mixed up whole unifomr parts).

After the war when Austria got independent again officials used the trifold again and uses them until now, as it was used before the annexation to germany. So many veterans ordered trifold ribbons to wear their original medals for special purposes. Attached you can see an austrian veteran with his postwar Spange and a friend of mine holding his awards he earned between 1939 and 1943.

Many greetings,
Stefan

[Jean-Claude]

Just to make sure I got this right before I flush this medal...

If I undertand the conclusions of this thread correctly ANY original austrian mounted TR medal (including the March 38 I posted in post # 78 which I got directly from a Canadian vet who returned in 1945) is a non-period, post war assembly right ???

Thanks

JC

[peterm]

Just to make sure I got this right before I flush this medal...

If I undertand the conclusions of this thread correctly ANY original austrian mounted TR medal (including the March 38 I posted in post # 78 which I got directly from a Canadian vet who returned in 1945) is a non-period, post war assembly right ???

Thanks

JC

Hi Jean-Claude!

To be sure, You must provide better pics of this "13.03.1938"-ribbon (front and back). It COULD be period, but that can't be said from this picture! As this was the first award to former Austrians after March 1939, it ist not impossible, that an Austrian firm has woven a ribbon for this medal, believing it possibly could be worn in traditional Austrian style.
Otherwise Your conclusions are true for 99,9% of the "Austrian trifolds".

Kind regards, Peter

[Jean-Claude]

Thanks for the feedback Peter

I'll be happy to take the frame apart and provide you with better pictures of this medal to see if it stands a chance.

Regards

JC

[Douglas 5]

Thank you for your explanation Peter >
Vielen Dank !

Douglas

[Jean-Claude]

Hi Jean-Claude!

To be sure, You must provide better pics of this "13.03.1938"-ribbon (front and back). It COULD be period, but that can't be said from this picture! As this was the first award to former Austrians after March 1939, it ist not impossible, that an Austrian firm has woven a ribbon for this medal, believing it possibly could be worn in traditional Austrian style.
Otherwise Your conclusions are true for 99,9% of the "Austrian trifolds".

Kind regards, Peter

Here you go Peter, better picts of the Austrian mount 13 Marz 1938 as requested, if you need other picts let me know.

Hardware to secure medal to ribbon looks like brass and ribbon is not stiff and seems to have a moiré pattern depending on the angle you look at it. Eyelet is
is crimped on (like shoe eyelet) and hook is sewn on.

Thanks for taking the time to look at it

JC

[Jean-Claude]

A few more picts of the 13 Marz 1938 Austrian mount

[tgn]

Hi again!

As said before and before and.... NOT ONE of (GERMAN-award) 3rd-Reich-trifolds are made before 1945. Some were made from the original (long-version) ribbons and You can see that, because these trifolds are little bit too small.
Here comes one from my collection. Also made AFTER the war, but never really worn by this man.

Kind regards, Peter

Peter, I agree with you 100% on this. These trifold ribbons for Nazi medals are post war. When I lived in Austria in 1973, I went to a clothing store in Innsbruck. They had the trifold ribbons for Nazi medals and some Imperial ones for sale in a divided box. I bought quite a few. I remember the salesman was fascinated that I knew what medal each ribbon was for, even the Imperial ones. After I picked out a bunch of ribbons, he went into the back and brought out a small bag with their logo from the war. He explained that they sold uniforms and accessories during that time and he thought I would like to have one of their wartime bags as a gift and souvenir for being able to identify the ribbons.

I still have most of the ribbons, at least one of each type I purchased, and the little bag somewhere. That would take some time to find, I fear.

And yes, they had ribbons for the Austrian Anschluss and Czech Annexation medals, as well as the EK2, Russian Front and Long Service Awards.

Tom

[peterm]

Peter, I agree with you 100% on this. These trifold ribbons for Nazi medals are post war. When I lived in Austria in 1973, I went to a clothing store in Innsbruck. They had the trifold ribbons for Nazi medals and some Imperial ones for sale in a divided box. I bought quite a few. I remember the salesman was fascinated that I knew what medal each ribbon was for, even the Imperial ones. After I picked out a bunch of ribbons, he went into the back and brought out a small bag with their logo from the war. He explained that they sold uniforms and accessories during that time and he thought I would like to have one of their wartime bags as a gift and souvenir for being able to identify the ribbons.

I still have most of the ribbons, at least one of each type I purchased, and the little bag somewhere. That would take some time to find, I fear.

And yes, they had ribbons for the Austrian Anschluss and Czech Annexation medals, as well as the EK2, Russian Front and Long Service Awards.

Tom

Hi Tom!

There is still a firm in Vienna which has a lot of postwar-produced 40mm-ribbons for trifolds of 3rd-Reich-awards. You are absoutely right!
But as I wrote in post 98, it's NOT impossible, that a few trifolds for "13. march 1938" were produced, because it was the FIRST award given to former Austrians in larger amounts. If so, this must have been in the very first time after the institution of the medal in May 1938. I'm afraid, we will never know for sure.

Kind regards, Peter

[peterm]

Hardware to secure medal to ribbon looks like brass and ribbon is not stiff and seems to have a moiré pattern depending on the angle you look at it. Eyelet is
is crimped on (like shoe eyelet) and hook is sewn on. JC

Hi Jean-Claude!

From the pics You provide and looking at the used metal-parts, I think it has a SMALL chance to be pre-1945. I don't think that this can ever be told FOR SURE and my opinion only depends on the used hook (looking like brass). That is NOT a proof, but most hooks on postwar trifolds are made from steel.
As a conclusion: I'm afraid, only the veteran, who brought back Your medal, knew the truth about it. If it was mine, I would keep it as it is.

I'm really sorry, but I'm afraid, this is the best I can do for You!

Kind regards, Peter