RK Oaks Strike or Restrike

[Brian S]

Opps, I almost let that get to me Andrew and Craig.

Then the thread gets shut down and nobody really learns a thing.

No, what I meant to say was;

1) The oaks seem to me to match the die characteristics of the Type I die

2) Why was it withdrawn, what disqualifies this oaks?

And although I appreciate your words on the efficiency of capital markets, it requires perfect information for a perfect market. Anything less than perfect and you have distortions caused by misinformation. Hence we live in an imperfect world influenced by information from many sources, some good, some bad.

[Sebastian Bianchi]

...but these reactions make it very confusing for the members, and easier to put them on your tracks, don't you agree.

I will repeat my thoughts a LAST time, and please other forum members please post a reply if you understand them or not. What you take for the thruth is everybodys own decission. Thank you.



-21 900 and L/50 900 dies existed at the same time.Simply different finishings for different purposes.
-I do not believe the dies survived, or are used for restrikes.
-I have never seen a proven restrike.

Wat I can prove:
-How a wartime Godet 21 900 or L/50 silber looks.

What I cannot prove:
-That the die did not survive or arn't used for restikes. BUT THIS IS THE SAME FOR WATHEVER PIECE IN ALL OF YOUR COLLECTIONS.

Brian,
Can you prove the dies did survive?
Can you prove they are used to make restrikes?
Can you show us a restrike, that you are able to proof it's a restrike.
Can you proof there was a die at Klietmanns, and if there was it was the Godet die?

So I can proof one thing, which one can you?

The only result is that the unexperienced collector will take the sure before the unsuse and keep his hands of these things, I find this sad for the collecting world.

Tommorow somone comes up with an other story of a die for an other badge and we can kill that to.....

Pieter.

I think that Pieter has summed up his points quite clearly here, Brian why don't you add yours? What do you think these are?

[Brian S]

I think the obverse matches many die characteristics of original Godet die struck pieces. Looks to me like they came off the original dies. The '21' '900' is of no consequence. It's not the greatest photo to compare but if you look above I think I've matched it to the Paepcke piece. Without weights and measures I would not be able to say cast copy but I assume it is not based on the fact Craig and others have held it.

So, from photos I conclude it's an original Type I Godet stamped Oaks. That's why I let the thread develop and posted the comparison to the Paepcke piece and pointed out the die characteristics.

But I can't see the curvature of the back, but assume, assume it's OK because other experts have held it...

It is concave right?

But, still, original to when? A former member who worked in London as a lad for people who put these out from the original dies says they exist as restrikes. Mr. Stump has made comments regarding Klietmann's business practices as has Gordon.

I'm trying to get the bottom of the Godet restrike mystery. It's more than a rumour.

Gordon also agreed with me on the simplicity of creating this little piece from original dies. Not the same as a badge with hinge/pin/catch and/or enamel. This can be done easily by an experienced silversmith.

Finally, you've seen the Paepcke piece. Awarded after his death. Not kept in a case but attached to the L/12 for 60 years. But appears there is no age on this one? I don't question the existence of mint items but the Klietmann/post Klietmann legacy of the 60/70's restrikes makes me wonder about the pristine condition of these. It's what I would expect in a restrike. Struck, boxed and sold. Not worn.

I would love to get my hands on that case and look at the glue. But I suppose animal glue was available in the 60's. But would still like to analyze it.

As a collector, I want to know more about the restrike issues. As a collector and this site being the largest assemblege of collectors and dealers, I am hoping we'll learn more about the Klietmann legacy and the disposition of the dies.

It was a miracle when Gordon found that Schickle catalog and when another member had a IMME pilot badge with holes between the legs that was awarded to his grandfather. But that's what this site brings to me as a collector, knowledge. And as a collector I'm asking questions not for revenge or self interest but for my own collector interests and those of people who PM and thank me for the threads I've started. You think I would NOT like to own a Godet Oaks and Swords? Ha! You bet I would. But I want to get the facts. My wife would clip my manhood if I bought a fake $25,000 set of restrikes. And if I and the dealer were both dead, she'd have my corpse disinterred and thrown in the backyard privvy.

So, for me, I have no problem with the oaks as to obverse die characteristics. I can't see the reverse to make final determination.

Original question remains, "Strike or Restrike".

[Craig Gottlieb]

I would love to experiment with a reverse auction to see just how low the price would have to go before someone bought these happily. Were they mine, it would be an amusing endeavor. I do believe in the efficiency of capital markets - even imperfect ones. Auctions that are well-attended are extremely efficient - and the internet is basically just one big online auction. So I disagree with Brian that this market is not efficient (boy, my wife, who is an Economist-PhD-in-training would have a field day with my loose use of terms here).

I have learned some interesting things on this thread - my first in-depth discussion here. Andy: You're right - anyone in the universe would see those pictures as mine - I'm the only guy who uses the grey background. Brian: You sum up your point clearly and concisely. Pieter: I have great respect for you, and value your opinion greatly. At the end of the day, I am left holding a set of Oaks that belong to a client of mine that appear to have problems, albeit not necessarily originality ones. Some people would buy them with no hesitation, others wouldn't own them. Is that how the chips fell at the end of the day? Extremely interesting topic.

As an aside, has anyone else ever seen a set of Oaks that appear to have been struck with the L/50 die, to have the correct finish, but that are marked 900/21? If it's the only set to be known - this one I had listed - then I would tend to bet they were real. Would love to hear other opinions on this matter regarding your experience with such pieces as these.

[ChrisJ]

OK then...

OK I have followed this thread (in spite of having troubles to log on for around 4 days)

Brian...I really find it hard to understand your crusade.

So... let us of the less well informed collectinig fraternity have the benefit of YOUR wisdom regarding this piece ?

[ChrisJ]

reverse

OK I have followed this thread (in spite of having troubles to log on for around 4 days)

Brian...I really find it hard to understnd your crusade.

So... let us of the less well informed collectinig fraternity have the benefit of YOUR wisdom regardnig this piece ?

and this side....so what do YOU think this one is then ???

[ChrisJ]

one more

and this side....so what do YOU think this one is then ???

Well??

[ChrisJ]

p.s....

I'm starting a thread tomorrow to state that all L/12 Junckers RK's are post war restrikes from the original dies, made by the original workers who were captured by the KGB in Berlin...I know because I met a guy who told me.

Now YOU disprove that, and you win a cigar....

If you want assurances in this hobby you shouldnt be in it...better collect stamps (like Pieter says). The only way that this hobby can move on in a genuine fashion is to sift the truth from the heresay and repeated roumour. ..and all you are doing is supporting once again an unfounded rumour...and parading what was probably a quite honest piece in a most distastefull fashion to support your views. Clearly these items are just pieces of silver to you, but to me and many others they are are much much more.

One last word ...Pieter is an expert, and I dont say that lightly, and YOU (who didnt even know the difference in the marks of 900/21 pieces) would do well to listen to words of experience that have no preconceived position to support.

[mott5ranch]

I too, have followed this thread and I've enjoyed every typed word. As stated above Brian asked us about these oaks. . . he was open and not sided one way or the other . . . . . .those very dangerous, rumor packed, head scratching oaks . . . . and many responeded as why they felt the way they did.

Some of us assumed this thread was going to be against these oaks because Brian often asks questions and places doubts in every piece on the planet. However true my assumption of Brian may or may not be, Brian is good for the collecting community, and especially our forum. As our hobby becomes flooded with copies we need to know and sometimes that means difficult questions.


Brian brought up some points that many of us wondered about and I for one decided to keep quiet and see how the thread played out. I have been burned by these. Everyone chimed in. If I had that kind of money to spare at this point in time I would consider these. Even Brian now agrees the oaks are good ones. Craig was very professional and sincere in his responses. Pieter, Stump, Andy, et al, hellfire, everyone had something to add and they said why.

Oaks will always have the shadow of doubt that the rumor mill has cast down on them. That is the nature of oaks. This thread brought to light many details I had forgotten or over looked. Many stones were turned over and all possibilities were discussed.

Again, this thread was/is great.Thanks to all that responded.

[Brian S]

One question. Are the oaks Craig posted flat on the back? That's what I'm being told. I thought they looked a little concaveless (lack of coffee) in the photo but figured it was the angle.

Gary, I haven't concluded they are real, I have concluded the obverse characteristics match from photos perfectly enough for me from this altitude. And thanks, but be careful who you praise, you may get a few stones thrown your direction.

[W. C. Stump]

Here is the set I presented from the side. As you can see they have a slight curvature to the reverse.

[Brian S]

I'm wondering the set Craig had has the concave shape as Paepcke's piece? Thanks Bill! Craig's looks more like the Type II back to me from the photos.

I'd really like to see an angled shot of the back of Craig's oaks, please.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Don't accuse me of taking members off track to prove my point. I misuderstood you and corrected it immediately. You may of course have the last word Sir Pieter.

If a tree falls in a forest and no is there does it make a sound?

This, too, I cannot prove.

Brian...I'm flattered....breackfast at 9...on bed please...

pieter, with a ''small p".

[Brian S]

Bump up, looking for some resolution to close this thread. Craig, could you please post photos of the reverse so we can see the concave features to the oaks?


Thank you.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

I'm wondering the set Craig had has the concave shape as Paepcke's piece? Thanks Bill! Craig's looks more like the Type II back to me from the photos.

I'd really like to see an angled shot of the back of Craig's oaks, please.

....Brian, a type 2 comes in different concave shapes too, ...but I assume you are aware of this?

pIETER.