RK Oaks Strike or Restrike

[Brian S]

Gordon's comments in Iron Cross of 1939 and numerous comments by Mr. Stump regarding Klietmann lead to conclude it most likely did.

Again, given these "textbook" comments and comments by eye witnesses make me suspect.

But I'm certainly no "big gun". Ultimately my opinion is meaningless because I'm not a respected MAX or GDc dealer. Today that seems to make all the difference.

For this little gun, it's a grey area TR relic.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Thought you said copies from original dies existed but were "easy" to detect.

...can you please tell me where I stated that...I think my English really sucks...

I did tell that copys are easy detected, not that they were made from the original dies...this would prove the die still exists....
I cannot follow any more, sorry.
Pieter.

[Brian S]

No you probably did not say that. You were no doubt referring to just fakes and I was not understanding.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

No you probably did not say that. You were no doubt referring to just fakes and I was not understanding.

...but these reactions make it very confusing for the members, and easier to put them on your tracks, don't you agree.

I will repeat my thoughts a LAST time, and please other forum members please post a reply if you understand them or not. What you take for the thruth is everybodys own decission. Thank you.



-21 900 and L/50 900 dies existed at the same time.Simply different finishings for different purposes.
-I do not believe the dies survived, or are used for restrikes.
-I have never seen a proven restrike.

Wat I can prove:
-How a wartime Godet 21 900 or L/50 silber looks.

What I cannot prove:
-That the die did not survive or arn't used for restikes. BUT THIS IS THE SAME FOR WATHEVER PIECE IN ALL OF YOUR COLLECTIONS.

Brian,
Can you prove the dies did survive?
Can you prove they are used to make restrikes?
Can you show us a restrike, that you are able to proof it's a restrike.
Can you proof there was a die at Klietmanns, and if there was it was the Godet die?

So I can proof one thing, which one can you?

The only result is that the unexperienced collector will take the sure before the unsuse and keep his hands of these things, I find this sad for the collecting world.

Tommorow somone comes up with an other story of a die for an other badge and we can kill that to.....

Pieter.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Gordon's comments in Iron Cross of 1939 and numerous comments by Mr. Stump regarding Klietmann lead to conclude it most likely did.

Again, given these "textbook" comments and comments by eye witnesses make me suspect.

But I'm certainly no "big gun". Ultimately my opinion is meaningless because I'm not a respected MAX or GDc dealer. Today that seems to make all the difference.

For this little gun, it's a grey area TR relic.

...I see, if you really think that, I see on which level you are and uderstand your reactions on the Godet story.
And please you do not have to reply on this post, I will give no further comments on this post.
Pieter.

[Brian S]

Don't accuse me of taking members off track to prove my point. I misuderstood you and corrected it immediately. You may of course have the last word Sir Pieter.

If a tree falls in a forest and no is there does it make a sound?

This, too, I cannot prove.

[Luftm40]

Pieter....amen! especially the part about the reverse looking different from one original piece to another because of hand finishing. If the "21" dies survived the war and were used to make restrikes, almost by definition Craig's set is original because they came from the so called L/50 dies. Craig, I would have no hestitation buying your set as original based on the pics...I think it is a shame to taint it as questionable.

[Brian S]

Pieter....amen! especially the part about the reverse looking different from one original piece to another because of hand finishing. If the "21" dies survived the war and were used to make restrikes, almost by definition Craig's set is original because they came from the so called L/50 dies. Craig, I would have no hestitation buying your set as original based on the pics...I think it is a shame to taint it as questionable.

Good job Andy, shoot the messenger.

[Billy]

Well... $14,500 and there yours, I don't think the owner of the oaks would have any problems with you buying them after these posts.

[Craig Gottlieb]

My apologies, Pieter, if I dragged you into some age-old discussion (I am not a follower of what are obviously longer-running issues than I had been aware of).

[W. C. Stump]

I spoke with Craig today about his Oak Leaves. I will say this for Craig about selling any item that turns out to be not original. Craig Gotleib is an honorable man and would refund in full immediately if he discover he sold a fake medal. Craig is just getting started in medals and really has devoted a lot of time inquiring about many items he purchases for resale. He has consulted me on many occasions, Steve Wolfe, Jason Brumeister and other advanced collectors and dealers for advise before he purchased high end items. He is serious about offering only original material and should be commended for removing the questionable Oak Leaves from his site and publicly reporting that he did. As per the originality of these Oak Leaves, I personally would not want them in my collection for they are not a "text book" example of the 900 21 marked Godet Oak Leaves. Are they original, restrikes or fakes? I would not venture an opinion either way until I inspected them in hand, but they are questionable enough that I would not purchase them myself.

[Brian S]

Which is why I never mentioned Craig's name. Firstly, the discussion should not be around the owner/seller but the object. Unfortunately, when an object becomes associated with a person like Craig, people sit back and watch and don't participate. As if Craig won't sell something to them or treat them fairly if they engage in discussion. That's not the Craig I know.

I have the utmost respect for Craig's reputation and money back guarantee. But as we should all know by now, an item has to outlive its seller, especially if it's a high ticket item. Klietmann and Atwood certainly aren't around to honor their lifetime guarantees. And I say that not to put Craig in the same cradle but only to make the point that the item has to outlive the seller. Craig cannot be compared to Klietmann or Atwood. It's merely a matter of discovery long after they've stopped selling. In Craig's case, it's a question of strike/restrike discovery.

I didn't make this story up. It was in Gordon's book and he's stood behind it and it was in reference to the 2nd model oaks. Mr. Stump brought the question of Klietmann restrikes to light himself in a pages long Condor Legion Tank Badge discussion. So why not question PERFECT 1st pattern looking oaks?

I'm trying to filter the data and try to make it make some sense. I'm a collector, I want to know. I'm a purist, I want the truth, the pure truth.

I don't care if the seller is Craig, Detlev, Gordon, Pieter, Gailen, et al. We're all learning and we have permanent losses to suffer if WE buyers make a mistake and we discover it down the road.

Why Andy would you just want to put the knife on this discussion? I didn't start these Klietmann/Godet issues, I am bringing them up and would like to one day find a resolution one way or another.

What IS the provenance of this piece? Every piece has a provenance. How far can we trace this one? If we don't know who these belong to let's get the traceable history backwards on this piece.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Thanks Bill. I appreciate sincerely the remarks. There is an aspect of guarantees that one rarely considers - the financial ability to make things right. Had these oaks sold, and had the owner run into problems down the road, I would have had the resources to refund the purchase price immediately, no matter if the oringinal owner of the oakleaves was even alive!

As for the owner, it's irrelevant. I often take pieces on consignment, either as a favor to a friend, as a facilitator as part of a larger deal, or just to make a few percentage points. There is no conspiracy behind these oaks. Just perhaps a string of mistakes made by people who did not notice what is becoming apparant was "the obvious" - not that these are fake, but that the Oaks are perceived today as questionable and not textbook. This is a hobby of consensus, and we should not forget it.

As a matter of courtesy and general interest, I wish to comment for a moment on this double standard you perceive. There is in fact such a "benefit of the doubt" extended more to some and less (or not at all) to others; not all opinions are created equal. There are legitimate reasons for having this attitude in some situations - two that I can see which are valid: experience and access. Experience: we tend to believe a person's opinion more when it is based on actually handling (buying, owning and selling) multiple examples of an item. Such a person notices trends that we may not. Access: we also tend to believe a person's opinion more when they have more access to multiple and unbiased information sources. There are some things (information, experiences) that people will frankly only admit to "insiders" whatever that means.

I highly respect Pieter, both because of what I know of his experience, and from what people I trust tell me about it. I certainly thank you, Brian, for your kind words to, and I do have respect for your opinions as well. You are correct that items must outlive the seller.

Finally, I am a very big believer in the efficiency of capital markets. Put a July 44 wound badge on Ebay, and if it's perceived by a preponderance of people to be the real deal, it will sell for a very hefty sum. If it is not, it will not. Put an Oakleaves set such as the one I offered on a public venue (my own website) and it doesn't sell - a good indication of what the market believes. Put your WPP police dagger on the table at a show, and it will bring what the market perceives it to be worth. In this day and age, enough knowlegable people with money visit the public venues that, if an item that is crispy and real and unhampered by controversy is not selling, unless it is grossly priced beyond what the market perceives as its true value, it will sell. Again, the efficiency of capital markets. It's a great thing.

[Brian S]

No rational person would question your integrity, Craig.

[Luftm40]

Yes...you caught me. I am secretly on Craig's payroll. Look, anyone who is familiar w/ online dealers would recognize those pics immediately, so it was really no mystery. I care not one bit WHO is selling something...my comments were directed at the piece in question, nothing more. Apparently this thread is actually some kind of sour grapes about a questionable dagger of yours?...not really sure I am following that one, but I'll bow out now. I hope you solve the mystery