RK Oaks Strike or Restrike

[Dez H]

Brian; I can see many differences between these two pieces, in the oak leaves on both sides and in the centre vein. Unfortunately I do not have any real experience with these to provide a accurate assessment, would be interesting to hear some comments from the heavy weights in our hobby. <O</O

[Pieter Verbruggen]

I've been geltky asked to make a reply on this, although I do not see the interest of it, I will do. And please see it as my personal opinion.

I recapitulate.

-21 900 and L/50 Silber dies existed at the same time.
-an L/50 piece was meant to have an better finish than an 21 set, as it was meant for retail. There is some thing else that proof this but I will no go deeper in on this.
-It is absolutely possible to find an L/50 type with an 21 900 marking.
When you are comparing oacks from the back they ALL differs because of the hand finishing and polishing of the piece.


But if (more importand to me)the piece that Brian posted is seen as a restrike, the theory of the 21 die?????...this one is made with the L/50 die...so perhaps this one survived

Pieter.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Those oaks are mine, or are at least for sale on my website. If they are bad, off they go. However, what I find strange is that they have been physically in the hands of various people who know Oaks, and they had only positive things to say about them. Strange, eh?

[Brian S]

Craig: What's strange? No one called them a fake to my knowledge.

The question here is whether Godet dies survived. And without provenance, there are issues. For my eyes, these oaks came definitely off the Godet dies.

[Craig Gottlieb]

In fact, after looking closely at these, and after studying the very good photos on page 317 and 321 of The Iron Time (good pictures), I have to concur that these Oaks appear to be an L/50 front with a 900/21 reverse. Given the hands that have held these, I didn't really give them an in-depth study. However, they don't actually belong to me, and so they are being returned to the owner tomorrow. No, they are not necessarily fake, but they leave enough questions that I would not be comfortable selling them.

[Craig Gottlieb]

The weird thing also is that I DO know the difference between the two versions, and did in fact explicate the difference in my description. If only I had stopped to look at the photos themselves! In any event, my website now reflects their not-for-sale status, and they will remain on-site for a couple of days so that people can read about it. Sure, they may be original, but they do not conform to the standard, and I don't like to delve into maybe-sos when selling items to clients.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Craig: What's strange? No one called them a fake to my knowledge.

The question here is whether Godet dies survived. And without provenance, there are issues. For my eyes, these oaks came definitely off the Godet dies.

...but not from the 21 900 one...

[Craig Gottlieb]

Pieter: Since the dies did exist at the same time, does this piece have a place in a collection as a real, albeit a non-standard piece? As you said, it is possible to find an L/50 type with an 21 900 marking, and have they been found directly from reliable veteran sources? To me and to others I have spoken to, the graduation of the 9 and 0 and the third 0 is a sign of an original period piece.

[Brian S]

I understand the difference between the two dies Pieter. Read above, I pointed it out. Who's to say Type I and Type II dies were not used for restrikes?

Pieter, I think your position is clear. The dies were not used for restrikes because no one here witnessed the 'event'.

Pieter, so a crime/event does not take place if no one stands up to witnesses it.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Brian: With all due respect, I don't read Pieter's comments reflecting what you say they reflect. But I don't want to put words in Pieter's mouth. It's just an observation.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

I understand the difference between the two dies Pieter. Read above, I pointed it out. Who's to say Type I and Type II dies were not used for restrikes?

I think your position is clear. The dies were not used for restrikes because no one here witnessed the 'event'.

So a crime/event does not take place if no one stands up to witnesses it.

...you say you doubt every 21 900(or for wathever reasons some like to call it the second model), without solid provinance. Because you believe in the survival of the die for it.
But this is the die for the L/50 piece...
...so you should have doubts on this "first" model no? Or do you believe both dies survived...?
Or perhaps no two dies

Pieter.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Brian: With all due respect, I don't read Pieter's comments reflecting what you say they reflect. But I don't want to put words in Pieter's mouth. It's just an observation.

....Graig, from what I can see from the pics, your piece is as good as it can be.
I can even explain why it has that color...but that's my one.

Let's start on the diamonds...were we can start counting stones....

Pieter.

[Brian S]

Craig, comments not to you, but the piece and Pieter.

Pieter has along with Chris Jenkins maintained that restrikes are nonsense. And unlike my maligned dagger forever tainted by one collector who saw more than one at a show "many years ago", several witnesses to the events at Godet. Not a witness to a particular restrike, but definitely restrikes occurred, but to which items? Questions? Doubt?

If one die survived, why not both? Would Klietmann not sell that die also?

And Craig, this isn't personal. I'm not happy about my dagger, true. But, how is it a rumor from ONE collector/dealer can take credibility away from the experts like Johnson and Angolia, BUT, more than a rumor, eye witnesses to Klietmann dealings can be dealt as ridiculous by one expert? Logical?

1) Pieter, could you please now post a photo front and back from Type I or II restrikes that are ABSOLUTELY the same Godet die so we can see the difference between restrikes and strikes?

2) Prove Klietmann did not restrike items using original dies AND proper '21' '900' strikers.

#1 should be easy.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Craig, comments not to you, but the piece and Pieter.

Pieter has along with Chris Jenkins maintained that restrikes are nonsense. And unlike my maligned dagger forever tainted by one collector who saw more than one at a show "many years ago", several witnesses to the events at Godet. Not a witness to a particular restrike, but definitely restrikes occurred, but to which items? Questions? Doubt?

If one die survived, why not both? Would Klietmann not sell that die also?

And Craig, this isn't personal. I'm not happy about my dagger, true. But, how is it a rumor from ONE collector/dealer can take credibility away from the experts like Johnson and Angolia, BUT, more than a rumor, eye witnesses to Klietmann dealings can be dealt as ridiculous by one expert? Logical?

1) Pieter, could you please now post a photo front and back from Type I or II restrikes that are ABSOLUTELY the same Godet die so we can see the difference between restrikes and strikes?

2) Prove Klietmann did not restrike items using original dies AND proper '21' '900' strikers.

#1 should be easy.

...Don't know how I could post pics of restrikes if I do not believe they exists...please explain me how to do?

Pieter

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Craig, comments not to you, but the piece and Pieter.

Pieter has along with Chris Jenkins maintained that restrikes are nonsense. And unlike my maligned dagger forever tainted by one collector who saw more than one at a show "many years ago", several witnesses to the events at Godet. Not a witness to a particular restrike, but definitely restrikes occurred, but to which items? Questions? Doubt?

If one die survived, why not both? Would Klietmann not sell that die also?

And Craig, this isn't personal. I'm not happy about my dagger, true. But, how is it a rumor from ONE collector/dealer can take credibility away from the experts like Johnson and Angolia, BUT, more than a rumor, eye witnesses to Klietmann dealings can be dealt as ridiculous by one expert? Logical?

1) Pieter, could you please now post a photo front and back from Type I or II restrikes that are ABSOLUTELY the same Godet die so we can see the difference between restrikes and strikes?

2) Prove Klietmann did not restrike items using original dies AND proper '21' '900' strikers.

#1 should be easy.

...Can you prove he DID...please do so and everything will be clear...
Pieter