S&L Ritterkreuz Question

[Leroy]

(By the way, not one of my 57 crosses. Not sure who it belongs to, but certainly perfect for this comparison.)

[Robert T.]

Same "B" frame but with a ring that looks like the "A", it shows that it was very much possible to burnish, drill and flatten the S&L ring.

__________
Robert

[Flemming]

One more...

I would say that we have a 99% positive match here.

/Flemming

[Leroy]

Progress being made here..... on multiple fronts.

[Leroy]

And fast, too! Confirmed only 5 days after my Post 53 in: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=Deschler
That's twice in the last week that my lying eyes have been vindicated.

This is what happens when people get interested again.

[Robert T.]

And fast, too! Confirmed only 5 days after my Post 53 in: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=Deschler
That's twice in the last week that my lying eyes have been vindicated.

This is what happens when people get interested again.

For your lying eyes, where's the S&L?

[Leroy]

Gosh, Robert, I wouldn't want to guess what these photos show. Why don't you tell us what you see?

P.S. Would I be too far off to guess only the one on the left is called an S&L?

[Robert T.]

Gosh, Robert, I wouldn't want to guess what these photos show. Why don't you tell us what you see?

S&l and Schickle or ... S&L and a "standard design" RK ?

[Leroy]

Which came first - the chicken or the egg?

[Leroy]

Switching gears a bit - If the newly-discovered "Deumer" RK (even in the not-so-perfect photo) is not the 3/4 ring RK, and if the reputed "Deschler" shown in Williamson's book uses a falsely marked very late (as in post-1957 late) "B" frame, and so could not be "the true Deschler", does that "re-open" the door to Deschler being the possible manufacturer of the 3/4 ring? Just somethiing to think about.

Further, does the proper "spacing" of the '800' and '1' marks on the "Deschler" RK shown in Williamson's book indicate marking of the frame before assembly, or does it merely suggest post-assembly marking of a previously umarked very late "B" (which would explain why we don't see a photo of the obverse of the RK, which might show signs of such post-assembly marking)? I ask because if the markings were applied pre-assembly, it would give great credibility to not only Prosper Keating's statements that he personally saw the damaged S&L dies for sale in 1981 in London (during his acknowledged youthful impetuous and on-the-shady-side-of-the-law days, before he became a Para and writer), but as well to the multiple reports on this and other forums that a London dealer acquired the dies and produced copies (sold as real, of course) of S&L crosses beginning in the early 80's? (I know, by example, that member "Ludwig" here has reported the direct personal experience of the London dealer trying to stick him with one of these. See Post 10 in this thread: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...English+RK%27s) IF this was indeed the case, it would indicate that the "C" frames used (and still used today) by S&L, following the appearance of significant raised beading flaws on the "B" frames, come from a separate working die, not a "repaired" die. That would have some significance in the "discussion" we are presently having.

Finally, does anyone know who made this nice 1957 version RK pictured on page 394 of Dietrich's book? (And yes, I've already asked, and he doesn't.)

[Leroy]

Following up on my last post (since no one else has) concerning possible sale of the S&L "B" dies in 1981 in London, I went back on GMIC and checked a couple of things.

First, Prosper Keating reported that he saw "a set of core dies and a set of frame dies with cracks" for sale. I had forgotten about the core dies being for sale, too, so I went further back and found Gordon Williamson's confirmation that when a friend of his had written to S&L in the 1980's to obtain an RK, the reply he received asked whether he wanted the 1957 version or the one with swastika (a story recited in his book and now cited as the written proof of S&L's postwar new die-striking of swastika RK's). Gordon then showed the swastika version cross available from S&L at that time. Here it is, in a "C" frame, and with a swastka core, but with the 1939 in an entirely different font (as used on 1957 "second pattern" cores from S&L). The core, as well as the frame, were replaced. Coincidence, or possible confirmation that S&L's old dies were now surplus and could, in fact, have been sold (and with that, confirmation of multiple dies and not just one repaired die)? Just something else to ponder as we try to figure all this out.

[Sly]

K&Q dies (according to Bob Hritz and others) known to have been sold in fairly modern times.

Is there a thread or discussion elaborating on this issue?

That's a bleak view and, very fortunately, we are still in a hobby where the financial rewards are not yet sufficient to put us at the level of what transpires on a daily basis in the fine art and antiquities field.

The concept of financial reward is quite relative. Given the value of these items, someone living a modest life could quite merrily survive by releasing a few a year. Given the numbers of K&Q who would really notice. Given infamous trends in the post-war manufacture of awards and badges, I would be more surprised if these dies were NOT in use right now...

[Leroy]

Sly - The survival and sale of the K&Q dies is mentioned in quite a few threads, but has not been, to my knowledge, the subject of its own, dedicated, thread (which it probably deserves to have).

[Sly]

Sly - The survival and sale of the K&Q dies is mentioned in quite a few threads, but has not been, to my knowledge, the subject of its own, dedicated, thread (which it probably deserves to have).

Yes, thanks, I just got off my behind and searched...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d+Klein&page=3

Though in a later thread someone mention them now being in Germany, or perhaps I misinterpreted the post...

[Bob Hritz]

I can tell you that Deschler did produce post-war Oak Leaves and Swords. I have seen proof of this, with a dated receipt from 1984.

I have always wondered if Deschler made any wartime Knight's Crosses and the Oak Leaves and Oak Leaves and Swords devices.

Bob Hritz