Flaw-traces again

[ChrisJ]

Final word

My final word on this issue is to pose the question "did S&L produce a large run of frames during the war, during the later stges of which the die flaws began appearing... and did they keep the surplus flawed and unflawed rims in stock for later use?" If they did then both wartime and post war RK's could have flawed or unflawed rims depending on the luckof the draw.
There is only one source of answer to this fundamental question, and that is S&L themselves. How likely you feel this possibility to be is up to the individual to decide. I personally, on balance feel that it is non an unacceptable risk for such an expensive collectors item. I would purchase (and have do so) high quality S&L crosses without flaws even though they could equally have been post war... but one with flaws would tip the balance against.
Interstingly, I have recently had through my hands a S&L RK that only had one flaw on the obverse frame (nothing on the reverse) between the 7th and 8th bead valley down from the top in the 3 o'clock position. It would indicate that this is the first flaw that appeared, and you can see it clearly in Propsers images.
The answer ultimately lies with S&L !

[Ron Birch]

Yes Skip, please post the pictures.

[Prosper Keating]

Skip,

Before you read on, let me stress to you that this is not a personal attack or an attempt to ridicule you or anything like that. But enough is enough. This thread was supposed to be about a couple of flawed-beading 1939 pattern Steinhauer & Lück RKs offered by two dealers, not about you and your apparent perception of any doubts anyone might express about these RKs as a personal attack on Skip Greenwade.

It's very simple. Some people believe that flawed-beading 1939 pattern Steinhauer & Lück RKs are fakes and others believe that they are original. Some of the people who believe them to be original seem unable to tolerate any dissension and when argument fails them, they resort to passive-aggressive tactics like accusing the dissenters of being abusive and aggressive towards them.

We went through this back in February 2001. I even posted extracts from that thread in this thread when it looked as if what started out as a debate over the originality of a couple of RKs offered by two dealers were original or not would be turned into another slanging match by the same two people. The third, Robert Kondor, is missing this time.

If you can't take part in lively debate without spitting your dummy out of the playpen when people refuse to agree with you, even people without your vast experience of hanging about arms fairs hobnobbing with dealers, then maybe you should seek another help group because this one clearly isn't giving you what you need.

Try this forum:

Open Mindset

I'm sure you find people there who will agree with you about your flawed-beading 1939 pattern Steinhauer & Lück Ritterkreuz...which you never did show us.

All the best,

Prosper Keating

[Skipper Greenwade]

Prosper,

Since, apparently, you didn't take the time to actually read my April 26th post, I'll reset:

"I will post scans of my RK early next week. Until then, anyone with a copy of Arthur Hayes' "SS Uniforms, Insignia & Accoutrements" can have a look...the actual piece in question is pictured on page 183 in the book."

The scans willbe forthcoming - I don't have access to a scanner at home, so will try to have them done on Monday.

From where I sit, if you truly wanted to be perceived as the peace-loving, all-around great guy you really are, you might have done well to stop your last post a couple of paragraphs short of where you did.

Skip

[Prosper Keating]

Prosper,

Since, apparently, you didn't take the time to actually read my April 26th post, I'll reset:

"I will post scans of my RK early next week. Until then, anyone with a copy of Arthur Hayes' "SS Uniforms, Insignia & Accoutrements" can have a look...the actual piece in question is pictured on page 183 in the book."

The scans willbe forthcoming - I don't have access to a scanner at home, so will try to have them done on Monday.

I know the book to which you refer. It's a beautifully produced book but not, alas, infallible. That a medal or a badge is featured in a reference work doesn't necessarily legitimise it as numerous discussions of various authors' reference books on this forum and elsewhere have established.

I'll check SS Uniforms, Insignia & Accoutrements on Monday but if I recall correctly, there are two RKs featured therein and the general consensus here in Paris, amongst people who, between them, can muster an impressive line-up of original RKs, many of them in attributable groups, is that one of these two crosses is definitely wrong.

From where I sit, if you truly wanted to be perceived as the peace-loving, all-around great guy you really are, you might have done well to stop your last post a couple of paragraphs short of where you did.

Skip

Ah but, Skip, I don't. I don't.

PK

[Sebastian Bianchi]

S&L RK that only had one flaw on the obverse frame (nothing on the reverse) between the 7th and 8th bead valley down from the top in the 3 o'clock position.

I recently examined one with the same characteristics at the Union show. Someone eventually bought it for over $6,000.

Seba