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**Chris Boonzaier** · 04-19-2002, 03:08 AM

There are many ways for a vet to have fakes without lying.

1) The well known trick of a collector visiting a vet and exchanging his cross for a very good fake is often spoken of here in Gemrany.
2) My wifes Grandfather totally forgot that he bought some replacement awards in 1960s, only because I found the sales receiptas was I able to convince him at all.
You are thinking of events that happened long ago and often guys whos memories went long ago as well.

That the odd vet may have these pieces is interesting, but is no proof.

Its a case of believe in it or not. I choose "not" on this myself, for the detailed reasons in passed threads.

**Mohawkwarrior** · 04-19-2002, 10:31 PM

So Chris,are you saying that the Crosses these dealers have are reproduction?Or just that veterans can fool people?Why didnt your relative by a replacement set of 1957 models and how did he get medals that had swastikas on them so soon after the war?Was there an underground firm known by german vets where they could buy Nazified repros to replace the real ones?Last of all why did he want the swastika versions if he could just go to the nearest Pokal dealer and buy the 57 models?Most of the SS officers who lost thiers wore the 57 model afterwards.

**Chris Boonzaier** · 04-20-2002, 02:23 AM

"So Chris,are you saying that the Crosses these dealers have are reproduction?"
I would not buy a cross with the die flaws and do not believe in the cult of the super dealer.

"Or just that veterans can fool people?"
Or be fooled by people.

"Why didnt your relative by a replacement set of 1957 models "
because he did not want any.

"and how did he get medals that had swastikas on them so soon after the war?"
Very readilly availible, please look up the old threads about fakes being made in Germany from 1945 onwards.

"Was there an underground firm known by german vets where they could buy Nazified repros to replace the real ones?"
Nope, open firms known to lots of people.

"Last of all why did he want the swastika versions if he could just go to the nearest Pokal dealer and buy the 57 models?"
He did not want any

"Most of the SS officers who lost thiers wore the 57 model afterwards."
I am not sure you know what you are talking about there. A fraction of German vets ever wore their medals after the war.
I have only had 1 SS group where WW2 and 57 versions were in the group, and know the widow of a RK winner who had 57 awards.
Both these men were socially very active, and in veterans associations where medals are happily worn (ODR or HIAG) Even then, other than the RK mainly only miniatures are/were worn (for most of them)
I know a few dozen vets who dont know there are 57 versions, dont care for 57 versions, dont want 57 versions or are just to plain cheap.
These vets have their originals, in some cases only some of their originals, and more than a few have had a piece replaced since the war by seeing one in a stamp shop (some of them have a medal or two) a flea market and/or an address in a vetrans association magazine where dealers have been peddling badges since the late 40s.

**Dez H** · 04-20-2002, 05:22 AM

The well known trick of a collector visiting a vet and exchanging his cross for a very good fake is often spoken of here in Gemrany

I can’t believe a collector would commit such a shameless and dishonorable act. These soldiers fought and died for their country and to be kicked in the teeth like this from someone is disgusting. Often veteran’s only memory of their “mates” is their few photos and medals. I have talked to a few veterans and they can quite vividly remember the day they were awarded this or that in the field. Some people should just be strung from the nearest tree.

Dez

**Prosper Keating** · 04-20-2002, 07:57 AM

I can’t believe a collector would commit such a shameless and dishonorable act.

You'd better believe it! There are a few people posting on this and other militaria forums who would be strung up from the nearest tree or lamppost if various veterans or their NoK ever got hold of them!

One of the good things about the internet is the ease and speed with which information can be put out and exchanged. It is making life a bit harder for the less ethical collectors and dealers who pollute this hobby.

But it isn't making it impossible for them to pull this kind of stroke. Not yet anyway. One could institute a blacklist and circulate regular updates to veterans' associations etc.

The only trouble is that one has to be very careful not to tar and feather someone as a crook on hearsay alone. But it is tempting to adopt a more Wild West approach to justice when one hears yet again that so-and-so is touting a tasty medal or group about and one just knows that he had it by means unfair and foul.

Prosper Keating

**Angel Farré** · 04-20-2002, 08:16 AM

Regarding collectors who stole or changed pieces from veterans remember what happen with Erich Topp and, unafortunately, this is not an isolated case. Some people feel no respect to others and do anything in order to have what they want, someone stole from an air base museum in Germany a FJ standart and one of Student's uniform. Belive it people are worst enemy for people.

Cheers

Angel

**Mohawkwarrior** · 04-20-2002, 10:19 AM

Chris it is possible I do not know what I am talking about,my experience in Germany is limited.I lived in Butzbach Hessen for 4 years.While there I aquired items from vets.In a couple cases the badges had the Swastika filed off,in another the pins broken off as a result of children playing with them,and in my favorite contact I obtained an entire uniform,badges,medals,headgear and the barracks wall locker that the soldier once used.I even obtained Items from the German Polizei whom I worked for as a liason.This was in 1982-86.Do you think some of the vets bought whole uniforms to replace what they lost?On the other hand the only original KC I encountered was an unassembled one in a collection.My main question still requires an answer.Are you saying the crosses offered by the above dealers are reproductions?

**Dave Kane** · 04-20-2002, 10:50 AM

FLAW!

I can't read German...Does Kai even mention the "flaw" in the description? If he doesn't that "over-look" speaks volums for the myth of the "honest dealer"!!
John

PS I would never buy or accept a flawed S&L as pre45

**Ron Birch** · 04-20-2002, 03:03 PM

Honest dealer????

Not to get into a mud slinging match about this, but I will say the longer I am in this "hobby of ours" the more *@&%@%#* crooked people I see. moremad moremad moremad

**Dave Kane** · 04-20-2002, 03:45 PM

I would expect that if I walkied into one of the 'honest' dealers stores and offered a 'flawed' S&L I'd be offered $200.00 and given a lesson in post-war etc..etc..etc..

However, when they come for sale from these people there's no mention of it AND if pointed out to them there would be a completly different story!!!

Anyone have a "flawed" cross out there? Contact these dealers and offer it to them for $3000.00 giving them a $3k profit useing their numbers and see just how many takers you get! I'll bet ZERO!

Ron..you're right
moremad

**Mohawkwarrior** · 04-21-2002, 05:36 PM

Back to the question and honesty.Are you all saying the crosses offered by these 2 dealers are Fakes.Every one has a comment that vaguely suggests that they feel the crosses offered by these dealers are fake,but no one is willing to take responsibility and say it straight out.I honestly dont know,Im one of those who think some of the stuff being branded as fake is in fact real.Its just not accepted by certain circles of collectors who by process of elimination have changed the scope of collecting and driven prices through the rooftops.Just my observation.Its just like playing the stockmarket I guess.Not a fun way to collect though.

**Chris Boonzaier** · 04-21-2002, 06:30 PM

Hmmmm... it seems that Mohawkworrier cannot read between the lines.
This is a typical case where you cannot prove anything one way or the other, you have two camps believing different things and it is not worth the energy arguing over it (there have been threads of this in the past and most of the older members dont have the time to repost all the old arguments. I would suggest you go back to the archives)

I believe the pieces are post war (happy ?), I cant prove it, and I dont need to, for me its enough that my money is safe in the bank and I dont have one of these KCs.

Some folks think they are good, well good for them, its their collection.

Am I right ? Are they right ? Who gives a ****. They are happy with what they have, I am happy that I dont have it.

I fail to see the point you are trying to prove here, but hope I have been of some help.

**Dave Kane** · 04-21-2002, 07:26 PM

POST WAR!!

POST WAR..and they know it! That wasn't difficult...First year law school...."there is no tort in the truth"!
John

**Mohawkwarrior** · 04-21-2002, 09:32 PM

I just prefer the straight forward to having to read between the lines.It may get me into trouble in this hobby as reading between lines is a daily must.

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