So you want to know about S&L Dk's?

[George L]

Ok, so rather than mucking up the other thread I'm going to show you some pics of 4 different S&L Dk's; two of which are 57 versions, and the others are the "original style".

The DkiS with swaz is for sure a post-war collector's market piece, while the gold maybe wartime, BUT that's a big maybe. One thing is for certain - the quality/differences between the gold and silver DK's with swaz are very apparent in comparing them!

The 57's are included as a reference to that period and as a comparison.

Wreaths: all 4 utilize what are the same wreaths. A notable difference between the 57 DkiG and the swaz version is the wreath gilt! Notice that the swaz version has a color to it that is similar to other war time makers of the DK.

Swaz: compare the silver collector copy to the S&L. The enamel on the gold is much more evenly applied, and smooth, while the silver is sloppy, and uneven. Also notice the silver DK appears to be flatter than the gold version.

Pin: only the gold version is marked with the '4', and highly burnished. The other 3 don't show either of these.

Silver Disc (below the swaz): on the silver copy, it's shiny like you'd see on most 57 pieces, while the gold is again, closer to a WW2 finish.

Silver Starburst: only on the gold version are the tips of the silver rays are much less pronounced than the other 3.

I'm not saying the gold version is 100% genuine wartime, but merely showing the differences for you all!!! If S&L did indeed make a DK pre-45, the gold one here would be it, BUT I can't prove that so as discussed in other threads, you'll need to come to your own conclusions.

PLEASE WAIT FOR ALL PICS TO POST BEFORE COMMENTING!

[George L]

dk1

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dk2

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dk3

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dk4

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dk5

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dk6

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dk7

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dk8

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dk9

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dk10

This is the last pic. One more thing to add is I purchased both swaz versions as collector copies so I have no financial stake in proving either is pre-45!

[Leroy]

George,
This is very, very useful and thanks for posting these images!
Is there any chance of seeing closer-in photos of the pins, hinges and catch, especiallly of the "4" mark? There are very apparent differences between the marked one and the others. I agree completely with you that the marked one is the one which should be given serious consideration.
Regards,
Leroy

[George L]

Hi Leroy, I will take care of the pics of the '4' marked piece, and maybe one of the 57's. The silver piece with the swaz is no longer in my collection so I can't do anything there, BUT the buyer is a member so maybe he can.

Forgot to mention earlier that the two 57's posted also have wide pins just like the two forms in "original" style.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi George,

Interesting comparison, thanks for putting it together.

I think a big negative for the gold one being wartime is the presence of hollow rivets. The rivets appear identical to the one in Silver, but the silver ones are slightly neater.

Lately I have put a lot of study into the wartime and postwar production of S&L Paratrooper badges. ALL of the wartime S&L para badges have solid rivets. And even the early 1957 para badges by S&L have solid rivets. It is only when you get to the Para badges that by many accounts were produced in the 1970s and later do the appearance of hollow rivets show up (this goes for the 1957 version as well as the ones with swastika produced on wartime dies). Based on the para badges, it seems that S&L didn't start using hollow rivets on their badges until several decades after the war (1970s and later). This is definately true for para badges and I wonder if the same can be said with these DKs by S&L.

Dietrich also mentions in his book that not one of these S&L DKs has ever been found with a vet. Does anyone have ANY provenance with one of these?

Tom

[Leroy]

Perhaps it is an optical illusion, but the rivets on the marked piece appear larger than on the unmarked piece.

Also (and whether the pieces are real or not) I would not put too much significance on the use of hollow rivets on these by S&L, which was making these for the first time that we know of. They may have just been emulating Zimmermann.