So you want to know about S&L Dk's?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Leroy, thanks for the info. I was under the impression that S&L made the OL and OL&S early on, but stopped due to the ban in 1941. But with Manteufel getting a S&L set in 1944 is sure a mystery if S&L wasn't an official supplier? Is that 100% confirmed that he had an S&L set, and it was that set that was awarded to him in 1944?

In any event, you are right, S&L would still most certainly have the dies for the OL and OL&S at the end of the war. And very well had some left over stock, although wasn't this supposed to be turned in to the PKZ when the ban went into effect in 1941?

That still doesn't answer the DK question and why S&L would have dies for them at the end of the war...or at all. Especially the silver grade, couldn't have been much need to add a 3rd manufacturer at that point in the war.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

That still doesn't answer the DK question and why S&L would have dies for them at the end of the war...or at all. Especially the silver grade, couldn't have been much need to add a 3rd manufacturer at that point in the war.

Hi Tom,

why not? Remember what had happened to the areas of the maker locations.

We have the following maker for the DK:

1. Juncker - Berlin - heavy bombed area 100% estroyed
2. Godet - Berlin - heavy bombed area 100% destroyed
2. Zimmermann - Pforzheim - heavy bombed area 80% destroyed
4. Deschler - Munich - 72 air raids between 1942 to 1945 - 45% destroyed
5. Klein - Hannau - heavy bombed area - 70% destroyed

Seems to me that the official makers of the german cross could have been in trouble to fulfill the demand of awards with the ongoning war.

If i had been the PKZ and would think that we still could win the war i had tried to safe my requirement of awards by outsourcing my demands to makers which hadn't trouble with air raids.

Lüdenscheid without "bomb terror" and named makers which were involved in producing high end awards from the beginning of the war sounds a good place for me ...

[Leroy]

I was under the impression that S&L made the OL and OL&S early on, but stopped due to the ban in 1941. But with Manteufel getting a S&L set in 1944 is sure a mystery if S&L wasn't an official supplier? Is that 100% confirmed that he had an S&L set, and it was that set that was awarded to him in 1944?

In any event, you are right, S&L would still most certainly have the dies for the OL and OL&S at the end of the war. And very well had some left over stock, although wasn't this supposed to be turned in to the PKZ when the ban went into effect in 1941?

That still doesn't answer the DK question and why S&L would have dies for them at the end of the war...or at all. Especially the silver grade, couldn't have been much need to add a 3rd manufacturer at that point in the war.

Tom

1.) There is no indication that S&L stopped making the Oakleaves or Oakleaves and Swords after October, 1941. They (supposedly) stopped selling them commercially after that date, but many have been seen being worn by people who were awarded them after October, 1941. How they got them is anyone's guess, but they had them. Perhaps some were awarded, but that is not proveable. Again, shops were allowed to have display sets after 1941, and S&L may have made these and also sets for state exhibits, museums, etc.;

2.) The photo of Manteuffel is posted in the old thread about the "boards". It is doubtful that this was an award set and Manteuffel could certainly get, and wear, whatever he wanted;

3.) The only logical reason for S&L (or anyone else in Ludenscheid) to have had a set of the (complicated multi-piece) dies for the DK is if they received an order from the PKZ to make them. Again, this paperwork (for S&L or anyone else) has not been found, so it is unknown if it exists or who was, by the end, authorized to make them. Although much has been made that there was no need to add a new manufacturer (and, by the way, there were more than 2, so S&L would not have been the third), it should be born in mind that several of the existing makers may have either been damaged, or have been under real threat of damage, by late in the war. Although the DKIS was awarded very sparingly, the DKIG was awarded over 20,000 times. Even the 1st pattern E-Boat badge, probably awarded less than 2000 times, had 4 known makers (of which S&L was 1). The fact that such awards were "available" at the end of the war is only evidence that the dies were already in existence and that component parts had been created. Whether S&L actually shipped any before the end is totally unknown, although I have heard "rumors" that attributed pieces do exist in private collections. These rumors have not been substantiated so far. It seems highly unlikely (and I believe Dietrich agrees) that S&L (or someone else in Ludenscheid) would have created these dies and parts just for the fun of it or so quickly after the war just to have something else for a board. A DK was a serious piece of work, requiring multipiece assembly, enamelling and finishing.

[Thomas Durante]

Hallo Andreas,

Yes, a very good point! I can see the logic there with wanting to switch to a maker outside the heavily bombed areas.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Leroy,

Thanks for the explanation, all good points as well. When I said 2 makers, I thought only Juncker and Zimmermann made the SILVER, but I was mistaken here too. Good thread and I for one have learned quite a bit here.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Whether S&L actually shipped any before the end is totally unknown, although I have heard "rumors" that attributed pieces do exist in private collections.

Hi Leroy,

so far what i know 2 SuL attributed crosses have been shown in german forums, both awarded around november 1944 and later if i remember right. I have the one shown in Dietrich's book ... awarded (as told to me) in february 1945.

No hard evidence i know so just as ad on to this discussion.

[Marc Garlasco]

George,

I disagree that the postwar Souval war badges are jokes. I think you are being a bit loose with terminology.

Marc

[George L]

Hi Marc, thanks for jumping in! I should've clarified that their DK's were very poor. Do you have any Souval-made DK photos to post that are show medals of decent quality? I have two Souval DK's, and yes, they are laughable. I can add them here, but they're probably better off in a different thread as this one's on S&L products.

George,

I disagree that the postwar Souval war badges are jokes. I think you are being a bit loose with terminology.

Marc

[Leroy]

Hi Leroy,

so far what i know 2 SuL attributed crosses have been shown in german forums, both awarded around november 1944 and later if i remember right. I have the one shown in Dietrich's book ... awarded (as told to me) in february 1945.

No hard evidence i know so just as ad on to this discussion.

Thanks, Andreas! I knew that I had read this before.

[Marc Garlasco]

Sorry George, I meant just the war badges. Crossed streams it appears.

[Rich G]

This will probably go nowhere but worth a try...

Does anyone recall a period photo of a dead Wehrmacht or WSS trooper who's body was littered with DK and/or 25 year faithful service crosses?? I think it was DKs but as I can't recall where the photo was I can't check. Anyway, I think the photo was taken just after the fall of Berlin and apparently staged by Soviet photographer. I wonder if any show the reverse...would be interesting to see what the backs are like.

Anyone recall the photo and know where it can be found? I'm sure it was in a publication of some kind.

Rich

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Bringing this great thread back up to see if we can shed some more light on these S&L DKs and whether they are wartime or not. This thread may help us shed some light, if George and Leroy would be kind enough to give us good pics or scan's of the S&L DKs in question:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=453580

Thanks guys.

Tom

[Leroy]

Tom - I wish I had one to show, but I don't! Perhaps George will have one.

I believe in them because I find the idea that S&L would have gone to the trouble to make new dies for all the parts of this complicated award, just to be able to sell some in the immediate postwar period to Allied occcupation troops, ludicrous.