quality S&L RK

[Leroy]

Were the cores not oven baked to harden the paint before assembly?

Does the same apply for all: EKII, EKI & RK?

That's one of the reasons I asked if this "blackening" was commonly seen on makers other than S&L. As a company, S&L was a fairly small operation. I wonder if they took short-cuts (assembling before paint was dry, not applying lacquer or frosting evenly, etc.) to produce a large volume of material to meet order demands. Although some of us may find this attractive today, perhaps it's really just the result of screw-ups.

[mdj]

What a nice close up pictures here.....

Here are some pics, perhaps it can lighten some up.







On the outside you can clearly see the patin/tarnish.

The black paint on the inside of the beading is almost extremely applied and can be seen on the whole beading more or less....

Martin

[Leroy]

Apparently not just a wartime phenomenon. Here's a beautiful 1957 pattern just posted by Matthieu over at GCA. Hope its OK to use this photo.

[Douglas 5]

Nice pictures . S&L was not that small of a company .. in their prime employed about 200 people , as I was told . I have taken the one picture that shows the incomplete frosting well . The old lacquer has turned black and only looks like black paint .

Douglas

[MH184]

How about this?:

If the original paint on the core was not totally dry at the time of cross assembly, it could "flash" up the inner beading from the heat generated when the frames were soldered together.

A similar effect could occur (even if the original core paint was
100% dry before soldering) if a final overspray of black paint was too heavy.
"Pooling" of the final overspray (if and when it was used) could also "wick" up the inner sides of the beading by the capillary action described by Marcus.

The "black" areas which are not actually paint which could be attributable to one or both of the reasons set out above, are caused by chemical interaction of the frosting, lacquer and silver base, as described in the last few posts.

So, multiple causes leading to similar visual effects.

Is this reasonable? (And, again, does this show up on S&L crosses more than it does on crosses by other makers? If so, is it because S&L made so many crosses
that excess speed of assembly contributed to these factors?) What about the possibility of using a covering template and painting some crosses, for the first time, after they were assembled?

More than reasonable, in my humble opinion, Leroy.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the multiple causes leading to similar visual effects. And I dare say an assimilation of the effects is perhaps confounding the issues further, as indeed not all such crosses will perhaps portray ALL of these associated traits discussed.

Douglas' and Matthieu's crosses behold some testament I think to the residual paint ideal. As much as I can say by pictorial observation alone.

In my opinion: two of the factors I would likely determine as a factory established and the other being tarnish; that having been evolved over the last sixty odd years or so.


KR

Marcus

[Dietrich Maerz]

Were the cores not oven baked to harden the paint before assembly? Does the same apply for all: EKII, EKI & RK?
Rich

Absolutely!
But I think Leroy means the paint that is applied after the final assembly to refresh the core paint. I am really not so sure that this happened at all. If so one would see a kind of seam or rim between the old an new paint and that is not the case.

Dietrich

[Rich G]

Absolutely!
But I think Leroy means the paint that is applied after the final assembly to refresh the core paint. I am really not so sure that this happened at all. If so one would see a kind of seam or rim between the old an new paint and that is not the case.

Dietrich

I have to agree...I have never seen any evidence of this either. It seems too odd because if there was going to be damage from assembly, it's going to be around the edge and this is going to be the most difficult area to touch up, even with a template. Also, in case the though is that they were rebaked, hence no visible layering, I doubt it... the frame solder would not have held up.

I think it is exposed sections that have turned black over the years. I have several EK's where black patches have formed that you'd swear they were paint but they are not. The crosses themselves are virtually mint, except for this feature.

Rich

[Robin Lumsden]

I think it is exposed sections that have turned black over the years. I have several EKs where black patches have formed that you'd swear they were paint but they are not.

Korrekt!

[Andreas Klein]

Absolutely!
But I think Leroy means the paint that is applied after the final assembly to refresh the core paint. I am really not so sure that this happened at all. If so one would see a kind of seam or rim between the old an new paint and that is not the case.

Dietrich

Hi Dietrich,

Leroy is correct. Pictures of this production process will be shown in the IC book of Franki. I was lucky to find a pictured wartime article in which they showed that.

[Leroy]

This is a very interesting discussion and I think some good points have been made!

As to whether a final "overspray" was applied, I know that I have seen on a forum (I thought WAF) the actual document showing assembly stages for EK's by a company (I don't believe it was S&L) which called for a final overspray of the core after all other work had been done. Perhaps some one can find this. I would think, as the war went on, that this ,very last, step might have been eliminated, to save time, except perhaps for pieces intended for display or direct commercial sale.

One question needs to be asked: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Dietrich's book (in the "assembly" section) does not mention at all the application of lacquer as a step in production. He does, however, mention that frosting (in his opinion) was accomplished before the assembly of the frame around the core (to avoid messing up the core) and that the polishing of the frame (by steel and hematite) was the last step in production of an RK. I mention this because of Douglas' comment that the "black" we are seeing is actually lacquer (beneath the frosting level) which has turned black, and not paint.

It was my understanding that lacquer was applied to protect the polished frame. If that was indeed the case (and I don't know for an absolute fact that it was), how can there be lacquer beneath the frosting (since the frosting was done before frame assembly and the lacquer was meant to protect the polished frame, which was the final step in assembly)?

Here is an interesting photo of the left edge of the top arm on an RK. If you look closely, you can see the frosting "line" (a beige color) to the far left of the beading. On top of the frosting "line", and inboard of it towards the beading, you can see lacquer (which has, indeed, turned black). Does this give us any clue as to what was done and when?

I'm open to all suggestions and have no wish to be stubborn or close-minded on this (and still think we may be seeing multiple causes for the same effects). It's just that every time I look at this, the "black" just looks like the core paint being "sucked up" the beading by the heat of the soldering process. (And, in the case of the "pooling" I showed on one cross, this is the result of an excessive final overspray.)

Regards to all,
Leroy

(P.S. A sidelight: I checked with Andreas, who went to all these places and spoke to a lot of people involved, and he thinks the number given for S&L employees (200) is much too high. Klein and Quenzer had a larger facility and it only had about 120 employees during the war. An interesting note is that he learned that many companies also made use of private individuals, who did work in their homes for multiple companies at the same time.)

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Leroy,

let's me comment on your PS because i could check our datas in the meantime. We have no datas for SuL but when you have seen their buildings in real than i can't see where they had place for 200 people.

Klein & Quenzer had in their best times 300 employes and a not know number of homeworkers. To have homeworkers was a common practice in this time and used very often. In the german language we have the word "Schwarzarbeit" (black labour). This word was founded in this area because from soldering the badges you got black fingers .... black labour.

[Leroy]

Thanks, Andreas, for this update!

Your work in this area is immensely valuable and provides us all with insights we can't get elsewhere.

P.P.S. I missed you earlier post where you confirmed the information on use of the final overspray. Thanks for that, too!

[Douglas 5]

That is quite correct Andreas .
The numbers I got from the son of an Juncker employee .. S&L had around 200 and never asked if that included 'Homeworker' , but could have ?

Douglas

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Douglas,

thanks for your input ... that was my personal impression when i stood in front of their building and had the Assmann building to compare. 200 persons including homeworkerts could be on the other hand possible. I know from Walter & Henlein that they had 120 permanent employs and 70 homeworkers.

[Douglas 5]

Hi Leroy :
After reading the last few posts ,.. a few things to clear up .
The EK2 was to demostrate how 'a method ' that was done by S&L early on - Juncker had done the same thing, actualy copied it from S&L , as it was exsplained to me by the son of the Juncker forman . The sequence could have been applied to KC's manufacturing ... but I do not know . This S&L (and a Juncker I have ) was assembeled first , frame polished , the frame sprayed with lacquere and the frosting brushed on by hand .

Douglas