quality S&L RK

[Leroy]

That is interesting, Douglas! I guess there must have been a template used in that step, too, to protect the core.

This is the kind of information that is VERY helpful for all of us.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Leroy is correct. Pictures of this production process will be shown in the IC book of Franki. I was lucky to find a pictured wartime article in which they showed that.

I know only the article by Mr. Tornow in which the use of this template is described in connection with the EKII. I have no doubt that it was used. However, there is no way the black patterns I have seen on some Knights Crosses (and that is what we were discussing here) and which I have posted can be made by a wrong attachment of a template. You can't have the valleys black and the hills covered with white frosting. Just not possible.

My observation was only directed at the Knights Cross. I can't say anything about the EK2 yet since I have not studied them in utmost detail.

[Leroy]

So....
1.) Painting of core
2.) Soldering of frame and core
3.) Polishing of frame
4.) Frame sprayed with lacquer (a template used to protect the core from
lacquer spray?)
5.) Frosting applied (another template, maybe, to protect the core
from "frosting drippage"?) (This assumes the use of painted frosting.)
6.) Final overspray (sometimes) of black paint on core, using
template over remainder of cross.

Is this the correct sequence, or was the frosting accomplished, as Dietrich suggests, before the frame and core were soldered together?

Was there a "touch-up" to the lacquer after frosting (which would explain the blackened lacquer on top of frosting I showed in Post #55)?

Some anomalies here. Differences between manufacturers? Differences between cross types (EKII, EKI, RK)? Experiments with techniques?

[Robin Lumsden]

1.) Painting of core
2.) Soldering of frame and core
3.) Polishing of frame
4.) Frame sprayed with lacquer
5.) Frosting applied

6.) Final overspray of black paint

1-5 : Yes, IMHO.
6 : No, IMHO. It doesn't make sense.

[Leroy]

1-5 : Yes, IMHO.
6 : No, IMHO. It doesn't make sense.

Robin,
If there exists (and it apparently does, from both Dietrich and Andreas) (although perhaps not the same article, which we don't know yet for sure) a
wartime-printed procedure for doing just this...why not?
Here's the link to the thread on the article Dietrich mentioned: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=paint+frames
Regards,
Leroy

[Douglas 5]

Yes Leroy :
Reading through post 63 everything you mention is correct ... except the refference to 55 to which I am of another opinion .
In part 4 ... a template was used as the lacquer was sprayed on .
Just once again this was done for an EK2 .... and if it worked for that award why not for the KC . Far fewer of coarse made and very good attention and care taken in production of these . It is not known how many by KC maker how many did not pass quality inspection and were 're-cycled' .

That the core was over-sprayed/touch up a 2nd time - I have seen mentioned a few times in original reports ... see if I can find them . Not ever maker probably did that ; this also means a bead protecting template .

Is there an absolute just one manufacturing procedure?... No ! Did the frosting take place befor soldering ... again yes but it took longer to do and was very deligate as it could would discolor the frame and maybe the odd spot of the frosting ?
As I was told by my source ... W&L did ...once again on samples of EK2s - things abit different . Frosting was everything to them and they lead the way in that field .
Yes ... other makers have crosses with stunning frosting ... like 26 .. 65 .. and S&L ... and of course the KCs just to name a few .
I do not have proof regards the others but W&L did : " Double " Frost some - if not the majority of there crosses .
The procejure was : frosting ... soldering ... polishing ..... re-frosting and polishing again . Not sure if the first frosting included the ribbon ring or not ? One will note that these solid frosted W&L beading form detail is very faint ...appears almost more like beading totaly eaten up . As exsplained to me the first frosting took place and the frame held horizontal with the beading facing down . The accumilating acid would do a real number on the beading as it pooled on the bead tops . The crosses show this clearly . No matter how the frosting was done there were drawbacks with each methode . As can be seen on S&L , Juncker and W&L EKs the applied frosting would run down the beading and spill on the bead step and frame , making the frosting look 'sloppy' ! The polishing guide would only remove some of the running/ dripping frosting or whatever ones wants to call it . All a fine adjustment game and over time a constant development process . Thick frosting paste did not run but was very slow working and took time . Making it thinner to work faster and the way it was applied had to be care that it would run . ... a real balancing act .
I have a double frosted W&L EK2 which I think missed the 2 nd polishing fase ... and which identifies it as frosted twice . Trying to keep things short as it is meant to show only different procedures did exist and not just 'one way '.
And as a final note : the few Juncker EK2s I have that have lacquered frames ... I have in varying lacquer state / conditions ... raging from clear thin to crusty thick and in final stages of deteriation even paste- soft thick goo that can be scrapped off with ones finger nail .

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

Here are the two types ...

Douglas

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Dietrich,

i have it for the IC 2 too but not as part of the "normal" construction way. It's namend and shown as "re-paint" ("Nachgespritzt", perhaps you could translate for the others if i used the wrong word) of an fully finished IC 2 before it's packed in the paper bag.

Based on that to me it looks like some sort of quality control and only crosses which weren't 100% perfect got this repaint.

I think what they did in IC 2 production can be transformed to the IC and KC too because there they had same problem with a not perfect black core.

[Leroy]

I believe this thread perfectly illustrates how much we need to take into account when looking at any cross.

The extreme "labor-intensiveness" and pure craftsmanship of these workers is extraordinary. Although I can still imagine that these all these steps were not taken all the time, and that the pressures of increasingly rapid production would have taken their toll, it is still an amazing testament to the work ethic which existed at the time. With RK's being at the top of the "pecking order", we can really start to appreciate the lengths which were gone to in order to produce these (by some companies at least) to the highest possible standards, given the existing technology at the time.

Thanks, Douglas and Andreas, for this great information!

[Leroy]

Another example (from the "database" - "A" type micro 800).

[mdj]

Nice pictures . S&L was not that small of a company .. in their prime employed about 200 people , as I was told . I have taken the one picture that shows the incomplete frosting well . The old lacquer has turned black and only looks like black paint .

Douglas

i disagree douglas...Its in my opinion not old lacquer that has turned black. Its for sure paint! With a loop I can see frosting traces underneath the black paint.

Its not patina/tarnish, old lacquer of something else. Its paint.

martin