Spanish Cross Silver "CEJ" with Swords

[Joseph D'Errico]

Thank you Lorenzo, Geesh!!!!!!!!!!
Best,
JD

[George Stimson]

I can't decide whether this thread is Orwellian or Kafka-esque. (Maybe a little of both?)

[Vadim K]

I can't decide whether this thread is Orwellian or Kafka-esque. (Maybe a little of both?)

As Grandpa Simpson would say: "A little bit from column A, a little bit from column B"... with a good measure of Twilight Zone. Much like Rick, I am having a sensory overload in regards to the "non-period manufacture items". Seems like a pointless word play to me: whats else is a fake BUT a non-period manufactured piece??? Can anyone supply an example of a non-period manufactured award that is NOT a fake??? A rose by any other name...

[Mark S.]

This is just getting silly.

I'm not sure what is fake and what is not accepted as a genuine wartime example. I am sure the one I posted is an accepted wartime example. I am NOT sure the bronze and the silver are wartime examples. Fake? I don't know.

So, its not a wartime example, but it isnt fake? Since when did we get PC in militaria collecting? I am sure Detlev has his reasons for the careful wording in his repro comparison (possibly legal), but do they apply here?

It is one thing to not be 100% sure about what you are looking at, but no matter how you carefully word it, the meaning stays the same. If you arent sure that it was made before May 8 1945, then you are not sure it real. If you dont think its real, then you must suspect its fake. Yin and Yang.

I am going to mark this day on my calender as the day PC semantic foolishness officially went overboard.

Back to reality though...

At what point did we lose track of what we expect to see in period manufactured badges, even in a most general sense? The more things change, the more things stay the same. It doesnt matter if you are talking about the pebbling on a wound badge, a KVK, or a Spanish Cross, there are certain standards we expect to see on real badges that arent so easy to define, yet we know they are there.

Case in point:

When you see a Spanish Cross with arm pebbling that is reminiscent of the backside of Rosie O'Donnels thigh, it is probably a fake.

[Tony Barto]

There are more fakes than originals. Why the hell would you want to put time and effort into studying fakes??? The real deal is hard enough to find as it is.

Let's keep the PC crap out of here. PC is designed solely for the purpose of dumbing down and takes you down the road to eventual acceptance of whatever it's aimed at.

In short, let's cut the crap and get to studying originals. Period. That's my 2 cents. Goddamn...enough already. Take your lumps and be done with it. Seriously.

[Brian S]

So being polite and civil is a bad thing?

[Joseph D'Errico]

There are more fakes than originals. Why the hell would you want to put time and effort into studying fakes??? The real deal is hard enough to find as it is.

Let's keep the PC crap out of here. PC is designed solely for the purpose of dumbing down and takes you down the road to eventual acceptance of whatever it's aimed at.

In short, let's cut the crap and get to studying originals. Period. That's my 2 cents. Goddamn...enough already. Take your lumps and be done with it. Seriously.

@ Tony, why study the fakes as well as original, that comment was worth about 2 cents seriously, why do you think Detlev post what he feels to be a post war piece every week to help people. So, stick to just studying original pieces and pay no attention to the fakes. You call that good advice. A collector has to pay attention to both IMHO.
If the lumps comment was toward me, I can take my lumps, heck I posted the piece. My question was simple and straight forward and I posted the piece so that others might not be led astray as I was.

I wasn't the one that turned this thread to crap, regardless of your thoughts, good and important information in reference to originals was posted. But the constant badgering and having to re-explain the thread is what bogged it down.

So, another thread gone bad, too bad for those that might have wanted tolearn more about ORIGINALS and what to look for in fakes, just because egos have to cluod the thread.

@ Mark , PC is was clarification, lets cut the cards here and do away with the BS. Read through the thread and it is obvious when it turned into to a shambles.

Best,
JD

[Tony Barto]

So Brian, what's your solution? Tell them what a wonderful post 1945 badge you have there? That's ridiculous.

Joe, Detlev posts pix along with a short blurb of the fake. He doesn't turn it into a friggin bible study or as a way to back peddle out of the original intent of the subject at hand. It's a helluva lot easier to learn what originals look like than try and figure out what all the variations of the fakes are. The floor is yours. Enjoy. I'm done and out.

[Brian S]

So Brian, what's your solution? Tell them what a wonderful post 1945 badge you have there? That's ridiculous.

Joe, Detlev posts pix along with a short blurb of the fake. He doesn't turn it into a friggin bible study or as a way to back peddle out of the original intent of the subject at hand. It's a helluva lot easier to learn what originals look like than try and figure out what all the variations of the fakes are. The floor is yours. Enjoy. I'm done and out.

I don't study fakes.

Too much trouble figuring out the good stuff.

I just don't want to stomp on somebody's stuff. Think about it, even a fake might cost someone a month's extra cash. Why crush them? It's hard enough to stick an item in your cigar box and eat it.

[Tony Barto]

I just don't want to stomp on somebody's stuff. Think about it, even a fake might cost someone a month's extra cash. Why crush them? It's hard enough to stick an item in your cigar box and eat it.

Brian, I understand. I really do. God knows I've bought many fakes through the years.

[Joseph D'Errico]

So Brian, what's your solution? Tell them what a wonderful post 1945 badge you have there? That's ridiculous.

Joe, Detlev posts pix along with a short blurb of the fake. He doesn't turn it into a friggin bible study or as a way to back peddle out of the original intent of the subject at hand. It's a helluva lot easier to learn what originals look like than try and figure out what all the variations of the fakes are. The floor is yours. Enjoy. I'm done and out.

Then why do we post fakes on the forum for comparison against orginals, to show the differences. I think this is where this thread ends as is has gone beyond research.

Detlev is not running a forum, perhaps that is why he explanations are short and to the point.

JD

[Tim B.]

Joe,

I am in agreement with Mark here, I believe Detlev uses his phrase for legal purposes to avoid any hassles if someone questions a piece and then goes back to that source citing his (Detlev's) reference. It's a business world.

I did not like your SC. The eagles do not look like the accepted style IMO and as Mark pointed out, the ring around the swastika would have made me quickly back away. I didn't like the catch or maker's mark either. Just my opinions.
Tim

[Brian S]

Joe,

I am in agreement with Mark here, I believe Detlev uses his phrase for legal purposes to avoid any hassles if someone questions a piece and then goes back to that source citing his (Detlev's) reference. It's a business world.

I did not like your SC. The eagles do not look like the accepted style IMO and as Mark pointed out, the ring around the swastika would have made me quickly back away. I didn't like the catch or maker's mark either. Just my opinions.
Tim

To be clear, JD was not defending the silver or the bronze examples.

Nobody would give a nickel for these examples.

But, stranger things have happened, I just don't think it's wise to state CONCLUSIVELY it's fake. But, certainly in MY OPINION, it is NOT of period manufacture. I PERSONALLY do NOT believe Juncker had another die. Why would they? I'm sure between Juncker and Otto Schickle, they punched out all they needed in these SC's in a short time. And, of course, whatever other manufacturers Francois determines is a bona fide war time producer. So I PERSONALLY subscribe to the one die theory on the Junckers, but I wasn't in India or Indiana when the fakes were created so I cannot conslusively say. So for me, they are not in my opinion, period manufacture.

[Mark S.]

Then why do we post fakes on the forum for comparison against orginals, to show the differences. I think this is where this thread ends as is has gone beyond research.

JD

The reason why we compare fakes to originals is to help educate members in a better understanding of why a badge is original. The best way to do this is a direct comparison. How many times have you heards members say "Dont just say its a fake, tell us WHY"?

Original badges have not changed in 60+ years, where as the fakes get better every year. If you spend your time trying to memorise some obscure detail of the fakes, your efforts will be obsolete in a short time.

If you spend the same time studying what real badges look like, the efforts will last you a lifetime.

[Brian S]

I think that's true Mark. You need to build a library of absolute great badges, then compare them down to the gnat's eyebrow, in this case pebbleing! I just can't waste my time on fakes also.