Knight Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords Steinhauer & Lück

[norsk41elv]

Just want to thank you all for the comments
This could have been a very bad investment for me in the end.

Regards from Norway
Jørn

[Dietrich Maerz]

Yes, it is clearly a an A-frame, I was wrong. I do, however, hold up my other observations that the frosting, ring finish and paint is not what I have seen so far with war time A-Type (and B-Type) S&L.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I CANNOT believe THAT !!!!!

Oh, on a pure intellectual basis this is even a pleasure since it leads to great discoveries. But I cannot remember I ever had a disagreement or intellectual discussion with you. Unless you insist on your notion in your books that the ring of a Knights Cross has to be a separate piece in order to be real and fakes have the ring as apart of the frame. If you insist on that - well we have a disagreement.

[Bob Hritz]

Oh, on a pure intellectual basis this is even a pleasure since it leads to great discoveries. I cannot remember I ever had a disagreement with you. Unless you insist on your notion in your books that the ring of a Knights Cross has to be a separate piece in order to be real and fakes have the ring as apart of the frame. If you insist on that - well we have a disagreement.

Dietrich,

You are cheating; you actually read the text and that is a trick of only us old timers!

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

I suggest that the three crosses on these boards were assembled, during the war, not for award, but rather for exhibit, shop or museum display. There are two unflawed "A" pieces, both "micro 800", and a hybrid of a "B" obverse and an unflawed "A" reverse, also a "micro 800". They were among the leftover stock of S&L at the end of the war, and ended up (as did the leftover stock of many other Ludenscheid-based manufacturers) on these boards (which were never "salesman boards", but only, and always, "barter" boards).

This would, I believe, explain any differences in finish or appearance perceived
by Dietrich or others. The accoutrements of Oakleaves or Oakleaves and Swords could have also come from S&L's "display" department, with the Oakleaves and Swords being a set awaiting final finish.

Of course, some may choose to believe that unflawed "A" pieces were assembled postwar by S&L, just to have something to put on boards to sell/barter to early occupation troops.......

[Dietrich Maerz]

Gentry,

your theory is as good as any other in this case. I have a hard time believing that some crosses (for display purpose) were painted different (or with clearly different paint) and why the ring is not finished. It it was for display, they should be just perfect.
The fact that one has A and B frames actually points to a production/assembly time of at least very late in the war or even later.

The question here is - since we seem to agree that theses boards are post war - were the items made during the war or not. The DKs on the board do NOT make the case easier.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

Dietrich,
It is inconceivable to me (and I think you, too) that S&L would have created a new set of the, most complicated, dies, in the weeks after the war, just to have a new bauble (the DK) to stick on a board for sale/barter to early occupation troops. I would remind us all again of this photo, from the Imperial War Museum. Not only does it show DK's, but the Swords set shown (if you look closely) is the same type (with elongated swords) we have been discussing. The RK's in the Imperial War Museum (which Bowen examined) showed accession from the War Office in 1946, and consist of both "A" and "B" types.

I disagree that "display" pieces would not look like this. Indeed, if you remember the original S&L catalog which showed an unfinished ring RK, I would instead think they would look exactly like this.
Best,
Gentry

[Dietrich Maerz]

I did not say that the dies for the German Cross were made after the war. What I meant is that none were awarded (or as of today nobody knows of one that is believable), there was no need for the silver grade at all (not even Klein - the latest solid manufacturer produced silver) and even Mr. Niemann, who is always quoted as having seen nearly everything, has none in his line-up.
Meaning: no show up during the war - show up after the war. that is all I wanted to say. Everything else would be pushing it in one direction or another. In that I have intention.

[Leroy]

We have discussed this before. Whether the DK's were made for an order which never came, or for an order which was never delivered, or were made and actually awarded (and we just haven't yet seen all of the 20,000+ awards (which is more likely), we simply don't know.

What Klein did, or did not do, has no relation to this, and what Niemann included in "his lineup" in the past is also clearly immaterial, especially as it is Niemann's own COA which now accompanies BOTH the DK's and the RK's from these boards.

It is more reasonable to believe that these these DK's (AND RK's) were in existence at war's end. If that changes how some view these, then so be it.

[Dietrich Maerz]

What Klein did, or did not do, has no relation to this, and what Niemann included in "his lineup" in the past is also clearly immaterial, especially as it is Niemann's own COA which now accompanies BOTH the DK's and the RK's from these boards.

I think it has since Klein was an established supplier and used the parts form Zimmermann. Zimmermann is the last known producer of DKs in Silver. I there would have been a higher demand the order most likely would have gone to either Zimmermann or Klein. But that is conjecture on my part and I would no be right to say all pieces of the board are wrong because some of the board are wrong. However, the opposite is also true!

That something was up at the end of the war with S&L is nothing new. The never ending debate is not only revolving around the 800-4 but also around war badges.

That with the COA for the Gold and Silver DK is a new aspect. As far as I understood it is that each piece has a COA. The board(s) was divided up, wasn't it?

[Leroy]

That with the COA for the Gold and Silver DK is a new aspect. As far as I understood it is that each piece has a COA. The board(s) was divided up, wasn't it?

The multiple boards and their contents are/were being sold by "emedals", to include the RK's and DK's (which were sold separately), ALL with COA's from Niemann. The actual board on which the DK's and RK's were mounted, was sold separately with the few remaining (minor) pieces which were on it.

What "was up at the end of the war with S&L" is that S&L (and the other companies in Ludenscheid) put their leftover stock on these boards and these boards were sold/bartered to early occupation troops. That's all it is and our collective cynicism and distrust (which may have some real basis in activities in the 1950's) has "bled over" to the immediate postwar period.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Cynicism is for the people who try to join the discussion with smilies instead of facts... I think we are talking here about skepticism.
I 100% agree with you that most of the pieces sold immediately after the war were genuine stock, never shipped orders or what have you. Some might have been assemble/finished by the same people which month before did the real thing.

I think the whole problem "with me" revolves around my attitude towards what is a real order and what is not. As you know, I just think that a real order or medal had to go through the PKZ first to be a "Third Reich order or medal". That might be very, very narrow when looking at the grey area at the end of the war - but it fits for at least 98% of all what we call 'genuine". Rather safe than sorry!

The next would be: "Produced during the war, but not shipped", followed by "Produced during the war but never ordered/sanctioned" and finally (what we have already) "Produced after the war by companies which also made orders/medal during the war".

Dietrich

[Leroy]

I think you may have "hit the nail on the head".

For a couple of years now, I have been trying to make people (who have never read closely your remarks, either here or in your books, or have misunderstood them) understand that you have always, and only, been talking about pieces which actually passed through the PKZ. That would exclude, automatically, anything which was still in a factory or made for purposes other than award. To you (and I fully appreciate your position) these pieces are not "official", even though they were made during the war by manufacturers who certainly anticipated that, at some point, most would "join" their "official" brethren and be awarded. If you can find "proof of award", then, to you, the piece is "official"; otherwise, it is not. There can be a very great difference, however, between "official" and "wartime made".

We all need to take a step back and realize that the "end of the story" has not yet been told and that serious people are devoting great effort to establish what really occured. In some cases, the information is gone, in others it is like looking for "a needle in a haystack". Sometimes, it is right in front of us and we can't see it, or refuse to see it, because we have built-in prejudices or beliefs based on "collector myths" which have sprung up over the years.

[Robin Lumsden]

Oh, on a pure intellectual basis this is even a pleasure since it leads to great discoveries. But I cannot remember I ever had a disagreement or intellectual discussion with you. Unless you insist on your notion in your books that the ring of a Knights Cross has to be a separate piece in order to be real and fakes have the ring as apart of the frame. If you insist on that - well we have a disagreement.

We all make mistakes.

I made mistakes in a book written 20-odd years ago.

You made a mistake re. the 'A' Frame a couple of days ago!

We are only human.....................all of us!

[Robin Lumsden]

Dietrich,

You are cheating; you actually read the text and that is a trick of only us old timers!

Bob Hritz