Mini Lapel RK & EK I

[streptile]

Well it might be an unpopular belief with some of my mini collector friends,but if I have to hazard a guess about the pin the started this, I would say it is an RK/EK combo. ...I just have no clue as to why the third EK is not included. Could be the 'ol private purchase/jeweler made version.

I've always considered two-piece stickpins to be EK1 and EK2, however, the one Chuck shows also has a ribbon which, if original, could conceivably have represented the EK2, as it did on the uniform.

Any thoughts on this idea?

[AlikN]

.....@ alikn - I have seen your combo before (or one like it) and have always wondered why put the loop at the top? Seems strange, since the cross is already larger indicating that it is a higher grade. Also I noticed the loop is oval in shape. Why wouldn't it be round like its big brother. Mind you I am not saying that makes it bad. Just a couple of questions I have.

Andy

Maybe at first they thought the loop would make it be more distinctive, so no one would mistake it for ek .....who knows ???
Loop is oval because it's just a wire soldered to one side first and the other end bend-rolled to a cross finishing the loop and being that small they probably didn't care little oval or round, hard to make a perfect circle when both ends have to be touching the cross.

[AlikN]

I've always considered two-piece stickpins to be EK1 and EK2, however, the one Chuck shows also has a ribbon which, if original, could conceivably have represented the EK2, as it did on the uniform.

Any thoughts on this idea?

Who knows when and who added that ribbon .

[Links234]

I have 2 of these they came with a set of wound badges I bought. Bought a WW1, and WW2 Wound badge the ww1 came with a Lapel of a ww1 wound badge, and the ww2 was a combo of the ww2 wound badge, and a iron cross.

[Peter J.]

Well guys, it's good to see some serious feedback on this topic First some reflection to show where I stand.

1. Images can be very deceiving and it would be presumptuous of me to form an opinion based on that only. My lack of posting privilages makes it difficult to back up my views, but I think Andy can help out should it be necessary. A PM for e-mail contact is also an option for interested parties.

2. The views I've presented are based on the small "article" in my earlier post. These views are by no means water-proof, given the lack of contemporary documentation (the "gray area" pre-Apr. 1941). We do know there are several possible combinations available dealing with two 1939 EK's only:
A.two 9mm crosses side by side overlapping.
B.two 9mm crosses side by side, edge to edge, left cross above the right cross.
C.11mm cross+9mm cross side by side, edge to edge, straight top line.
D.11mm cross+9mm cross side by side, edge to edge, left cross slightly lower.
E.11mm cross+9mm cross side by side, edge to edge, straight top line with extra folded bar at the top of the left cross.

Feel free to add the letter F or further, should there be more out there.

When comparing i.g. Schickle's combos, it's clear they used the same design on both 1914 and 1939 i.e. "D". As a sidenote, they don't feature a specific KC mini in either size, nor the trippel-combo RK/EK1/EK2 (catalogue 1940). I suppose the 1939 version could have been seen as a KC-combo and the similarity the 1914 combo in appearence happened just by chance, but it must have very confusing for both the producer and viewer to tell them apart, given their small size. Perhaps this type of dilemma was one of the reasons for the need of regulations. Consequently I'm still open-minded about this type of combo.

There is one more factor, mayby not relevant but worth considering. In April 1941 there weren't many KC holders, hence the need for a mini was rather limited. I also believe every KC holder used every opportunity to show off with his exclusive decoration and dress in uniform at all times.

"I think the point is that the mark is part of the die for this piece, presumably because it's so small."

Trevor, being part of the die isn't the issue because it evident and as can be seen on the post after your's, 9mm minis were also stamped (L/52 incused, I also have a stamped L/18 9mm EK). The point I'm trying to establish is if the L/11 in relief can be found on any other type of 9mm minis.

This post is now getting boring to read and I'll take brake Alikn, can you please post an image of the reverse and what's your opinion, is the combo struck or die-cast (die-forged)?

cheers
Peter

[streptile]

Incidentally, for those who believe this may be an RK/EK1 combination, an identical one can be bought for EUR 55,- at Andre Huesken, item A8052. He lists it as an EK1/EK2.

Also, here is another one, for 1914 EKs (when there was no RK). So I guess this style was used for EK1/EK2 combos:

[vonStubben]

@ alikn - I have seen your combo before (or one like it) and have always wondered why put the loop at the top? Seems strange, since the cross is already larger indicating that it is a higher grade. Also I noticed the loop is oval in shape. Why wouldn't it be round like its big brother. Mind you I am not saying that makes it bad. Just a couple of questions I have.

Andy

Andy,

This may be why they put a loop at the top so that it could be made for individual wear in this fashion.

I have two of these very rare 16mm 1914 miniatures. I don't know if it is supposed to represent the EKII or IF it could be a miniature of the Grand Cross (I rather believe it was for the EKII???). What is so nice about these is that they are of three piece construction with sliver frames and iron cores.

[AlikN]

...
I have two of these very rare 16mm 1914 miniatures. I don't know if it is supposed to represent the EKII or IF it could be a miniature of the Grand Cross (I rather believe it was for the EKII???). What is so nice about these is that they are of three piece construction with sliver frames and iron cores.

I have couple of those three piece construction EK's, ....those are very nice!

[AlikN]

... Alikn, can you please post an image of the reverse and what's your opinion, is the combo struck or die-cast (die-forged)?

cheers
Peter

Here are some pics of the obverse, ...looks to me like it's die struck.

[AlikN]

...

[vonStubben]

I have couple of those three piece construction EK's, ....those are very nice!

Alikn,

I find this posting and picture to be very interesting as well as exciting. Seeing how your 1914 3 pc. EK is mounted along with a Hindenburg cross makes one wonder if these were TR produced and not made during the 1914/18 period???

Chuck

[AlikN]

I really don't know when those were made.

...here is the other side.

[Peter J.]

Chuck, thats a very nice 2nd class on bow you've got there, I wouldn't mind a 3-piece mini in my collection. The pin-backed version (I assume 12-13mm) is most probably intended to represent a 1st class.

Alikn, I'm truly impressed with your mini medal bar, not often seen and definately produced post-1934.
The reverse image confirms the combo is made in one piece, hence the added "loop" fills no purpose for wear as a single piece. I can't tell by these images if there are any shear-marks, which would be essential for such a piece. On the other hand, it would make perfect sense should it be die-cast i.e. the "loop" is the hole where the melted metal was poured into the die.

Andy, the private/jeweller suggestion is worth considering, as it has often been used as an excuse for inferior quality or non standard design. My spontaneous question to that is, with the large quantity of specialized producers of decorations, why would anyone purchase from a local jeweller, (no doubt more expensive) unless the quality was better than the pieces offered by the retail-shops?

I made an inquiry about the L/11 mark in general on another forum and the response made me realize my own limitations in regards of viewing a piece in a constructive manner It should be obvious at first sight, the digit "1" is just a plain line, not consistent in design with any other L/11 mark.

cheers
Peter

[Tim Calvert]

Very nice, Tim. Any chance to see a larger photo of the single EK stickpin in the right?

Thnx! However, my entire collection is packed away 1000 to the north so the best I can do is add this full sized shot of the same pic.

I don't have a shot of the back, but going by memory I'm 99% sure it is marked L/11 on the reverse. Can't remember if the mark is in relief?
It's the same as the one in Iron Time.