EKII, silver plated frame, base metal is copper?

[Roglebk]

I would also say that the Ni frame was copper plated to make the high grade silver adhere better . As an early piece more attention and work were put into these pieces ,but very time consuming and labor intensive ! Solid copper exposed surface would have turned green by now .

Douglas

Hi Douglas, Would not a copper plating (which is high grade copper) oxidize as much as a frame made of Copper? There are no green oxide seen on the cross at all. When first saw the copper color i took the cross outside in the blazing sunlight and tried to get more pics. The copper colored spots seemed to show more "flash" in the sunlight, they were not dull brown as the spots in the Übergrösse.

Plating does not really make sense to me, if not a non copper alloy was used as base metal. All Copper based alloys (Neusilber, Brass, Bronze, Alpacka or Tombak) would be a good foundation to the Silver plating imo.

Bet that some nice old German metallurgist is sitting on a cloud laughing his ass off in our attemt to break this one

[keifer kahn]

Nusilber(Nickel silver) utilised in standard frames of EK2,s was not a high pecentage Nickel alloy.
It was 60% copper,20% Nickel and 20% zink.
Alloys break down over time with certain factors(environmental, storage,etc) and what commonly happens is the predominant metal used bleeds through.
I believe this is what has happened with your cross.
As for the green oxidization, it caused by environmental, storage,etc factors as well.It only occurs if the factors needed occur.

Also take into account some EK frames were made from Brass, plated with silver.Brass is generally 67% copper and 33% zink. That rich red colour,that the cross shows is what id expect to see in Brass from that period.If it is indeed brass, that is a characteristic of the copper content.

[Roglebk]

Copper alloy metallurgy

Some common Copper alloys:

Neusilber, German Silver, Nickel Silver: Alloy made of Brass (Cu & Zn) and Nickel. Copper (Cu) 45-70%, Nickel (Ni) 5-30%, Zinc (Zn) 8-45%

Alpacka: Cu 60%, Zn 22%, Ni 18%

Brass, Messing: Common blend Cu 65%, Zn 35%

Bronze: Cu, Tin (Sn) and some other metals in various blends.

Tombak: Brass with high contence of Cu, at least 70%

Seems like the "Silver effect" comes from the Nickel (Ni) content, too low and the alloy turns "copper color" or reddish. This makes me believe that the coppper color seen in the cross actually is the base metal, probably Neusilber with not enough Nickel in it, hence the reddish color.

[Roglebk]

Nusilber(Nickel silver) utilised in standard frames of EK2,s was not a high pecentage Nickel alloy.
It was 60% copper,20% Nickel and 20% zink.
Alloys break down over time with certain factors(environmental, storage,etc) and what commonly happens is the predominant metal used bleeds through.
I believe this is what has happened with your cross.
As for the green oxidization, it caused by environmental, storage,etc factors as well.It only occurs if the factors needed occur.

Hi Keifer, i agree, and disagree. You are correct about the green oxidation, it does not happen if the conditions is not right, just as any other oxidation. There is no bleeding on the cross, just common wear. Think it is not correct to put a exact blend of 60/20/20 in the Neusilber used. That probably changed from batch to batch, maker to maker and so on.

[Roglebk]

Nusilber(Nickel silver) utilised in standard frames of EK2,s was not a high pecentage Nickel alloy.
It was 60% copper,20% Nickel and 20% zink.
Alloys break down over time with certain factors(environmental, storage,etc) and what commonly happens is the predominant metal used bleeds through.
I believe this is what has happened with your cross.
As for the green oxidization, it caused by environmental, storage,etc factors as well.It only occurs if the factors needed occur.

Also take into account some EK frames were made from Brass, plated with silver.Brass is generally 67% copper and 33% zink. That rich red colour,that the cross shows is what id expect to see in Brass from that period.If it is indeed brass, that is a characteristic of the copper content.

This is exactly what i wanted to hear! Some do not believe that Brass were used as a base metal, i obviosly do not agree with them. Could you show us a cross with frames like that?

[keifer kahn]

I agree ,its a common characteristic.

And its very common with copper based alloys.

One extreme example i have is a ground dug Brass English Shako plate from the Crimea war.It looks to be almost totally composed of Copper due to the Copper leaching in the alloy.The zink has totally broken down leaving the main componet of the alloy behind.

[keifer kahn]

Thats strange,
I didnt think it was a secret or a rumour about Brass frames.
I dont focus on crosses any more and dont have any examples left but i have owned several.

As for reference material ,Iron cross expert Gordon Williamson quotes this fact in his book "The iron cross of 1939" Page 49, Chapter title "The Iron cross second class"

This is what he writes,

"The centre core was held between two frame halves, which were struck from Nickel-silver(Neusilber) Or from BRASS,which was then silver plated"


I should of stated the Percentage for Neusilber i quoted was an average not an exact.
You are correct, of course those percentages would vary.

One reason the percentages would of varied Neusilber alloys is that copper is required to make Brass.
Brass from the 1st of March 1942 became earmarked soley for armamaent manufacture and made unavailable to award makers.So a lot of the copper available to award makers would of been diverted to the manufacture of Brass
Zink on the other hand was still available to award makers and became one of the predominate metals used for awards(especially Pab, iabs, etc).
Consequently the percentage of zink used in neusilber would of grown higher to accomadate the diversion of the diminishing supply of Copper to Brass manufacture.

[Robert P.]

Very interesting , especially the quote from Gordon's book on the '1939 Iron Cross'. This brings about a whole new way of thinking for me. If this was any other cross than a R3 I would do some very delicate destructive testing on it to determine if there is anything below the copper-colored metal. I've learned something here, and I appreciate the input from all.

[Danny70]

This is a very interesting topic. I'll add this cross in as another example. Again it's a round 3 with stepped swastika and stippled core. The copper colour of the base metal is very obvious on the corners on the left side. The obverse of the cross doesn't have this wear.
(Now that I think about it, this wear in that area, coupled with a very small suspension ring make me think this must have been removed from a medal bar.)

[Robert P.]

This is something to look for on all R3's with the stepped swasi and strippled core from now on. Looking at the outer edges and outside corners where the wear might be the heaviest do you still see the copper-colored metal? Mine is worn only on the crowns of the beading, and just a little on the bead step...

[Montgomery Burns]

want to bring some Moore info on neusilber at this point ,,,

strait from 1935

fore those who can read German ...

reddish or yellowish/greenish neusilber exists ....

depending on the % off nickel and sink to the % off copper

hope it's appreciated and off a little help

regards kay

[Douglas 5]

Danke

Douglas