EKII, silver plated frame, base metal is copper?

[Roglebk]

This one is a mystery, the base metal is copper colored? No German silver/neusilber alloy had this colour. It's even more copper red in sunlight. Anyone heard of frames made of copper?

[Robert P.]

Carl,

What maker is it? Can you post a photo of the entire cross, please?

[Don D.]

Perhaps copper plated to help the silver adher.

[streptile]

Can you post a photo of the entire cross, please?

Yes, I'd be interested, too.

[AUSGANG]

Is the cross of standard three piece construction or made of one single piece? Plenty of reproduction crosses are plated copper. Maybe you can show the whole cross?

[Roglebk]

You guys Did not want to show the whole cross at the start because that would spoil the fun! It belongs to a very nice fella that has already weighed in here. Maker is unknown but i believe it's a Deschler, well at least the core. Ok here we go...

1939 EKII Round 3 version with swaz on base & stippled core. Solid, or just plated twice, Copper/Brass/Bronze frames? Why plate frames 2 times? There's Brass plated iron cores, but that was done to fend off the rust.

[Don D.]

Depends on what the frames are made of. Tombak also shows up as a copperish color on some badges. Even silver frames are not completely silver. Usually silver is mixed with another metal, like copper, before being worked.

[Roglebk]

Perhaps copper plated to help the silver adher.

That would make sense Don, what would the base metal be in that case?

[Roglebk]

Depends on what the frames are made of. Tombak also shows up as a copperish color on some badges. Even silver frames are not completely silver. Usually silver is mixed with another metal, like copper, before being worked.

Most metals are in the form of alloys, not even natural found gold is 100% pure. But silver alloy keeps the white silver color down to a very low silver content. White gold for example is gold alloyed with silver, 18 Kt white gold has only got 25% Silver in it but is still white.

Frames worn down places does not look like Tombak, Bronze or Brass, my best guess is an alloy with a very high copper content, but then it would oxidize to a green color very easy i guess?

[Robert P.]

You guys Did not want to show the whole cross at the start because that would spoil the fun! It belongs to a very nice fella that has already weighed in here. Maker is unknown but i believe it's a Deschler, well at least the core. Ok here we go...

1939 EKII Round 3 version with swaz on base & stippled core. Solid, or just plated twice, Copper/Brass/Bronze frames? Why plate frames 2 times? There's Brass plated iron cores, but that was done to fend off the rust.

That would be me. I'll have to agree with Don with his adherance theory. What lies below the copper (if anything) is anyone's guess, but I see no reason why the frame could indeed be made of a copper-colored alloy. On the sides of the worn bead crowns I see some silver-colored metal, which I believe is just the silver plating over the copper, not an alloy under the copper. My 10X loupe is just not enough to determine whether it's an alloy under the copper. This is very interesting, just as interesting as Ni-plated magnetic cores in standard '39 crosses. Looking very closely at my other R3's I see no evidence of any copper-colored metal showing through anywhere on their beading.

[Tim O.]

Dear All

I'm probably talking rubbish but I always understood German 'neusilber' to be a nickel/copper alloy. I thought that was why a lot of 'buntmetall' badges had a yellow caste to them that seems to become more obvious with age. I thought EK frames were made of 'neusilber' and not real silver.

Am I way off on this?

best wishes
Tim O.

[schönbeck]

our own repair doctor Jimmy can probably tell more, but I think that a copper coat will make the silverwash stick better. And if you use less good material maybe its needed. Just guessing here....

[Robert P.]

Dear All

I'm probably talking rubbish but I always understood German 'neusilber' to be a nickel/copper alloy. I thought that was why a lot of 'buntmetall' badges had a yellow caste to them that seems to become more obvious with age. I thought EK frames were made of 'neusilber' and not real silver.

Am I way off on this?

best wishes
Tim O.

Tim,

The way I understand it some EK frames were made of neusilber (Ni alloy), yes, but I believe they were of a higher Ni content, giving them a dull silver appearance before burnishing to a shine. Earlier cross frames were made of coin silver (60% silver), and Ni, the Ni then plated with a high-grade silver, then polished. I honestly can't imagine this cross's frame to be made of what appears to be copper, but rather a copper plating over the Ni alloy to give the high-grade silver wash a better adhesion. On the flipside this cross could have been made with a higher copper content in the Ni alloy as an experimental run. Only destructive testing will determine the truth. It would be interesting if documentation was found supporting this theory.

[Douglas 5]

I would also say that the Ni frame was copper plated to make the high grade silver adhere better . As an early piece more attention and work were put into these pieces ,but very time consuming and labor intensive ! Solid copper exposed surface would have turned green by now .

Douglas

[Roglebk]

That would be me. I'll have to agree with Don with his adherance theory. What lies below the copper (if anything) is anyone's guess, but I see no reason why the frame could indeed be made of a copper-colored alloy. On the sides of the worn bead crowns I see some silver-colored metal, which I believe is just the silver plating over the copper, not an alloy under the copper. My 10X loupe is just not enough to determine whether it's an alloy under the copper. This is very interesting, just as interesting as Ni-plated magnetic cores in standard '39 crosses. Looking very closely at my other R3's I see no evidence of any copper-colored metal showing through anywhere on their beading.

Hi Robert, why could it not be made of a copper-colored alloy? My Übergrösse shows color too, but darker. Maybe we need to rethink about the base metals used in making frames. Any copper alloy (Brass, tombak, Bronze or other) would make sense to me. Cheaper, less wear on the tools and much more fun!