Collector Alert: Fake Knight's Cross Document Sets

[J Howland]

If you compare the images on Detlev's site, you can see that they are different than the repros--I'm sure that Detlev has seen enough of these to know an original from a reproduction.
Erich

Just to put your minds at ease: I bought one of the repro RK documents in question (not the leather folder, just the doc). Perhaps if it was framed under non glare glass, it might fool a serious collector briefly, but once you got over the initial shock of suddenly seeing one "up close and personal" - well, if you hold it at an angle it is very obvious that the lettering is not hand done and has been produced through some sort of offset process.

They look good, but they are very obviously printed, not hand lettered.If I owned a documented RK but not the certificate, I would probably find it a worthwhile investment to have one done up to "go" with the cross, but these docs are "dangerous" only in photos...and I doubt that anyone who is a member of this forum would be foolish enough to contemplate an investment of that size w/o wanting to "handle the goods" first.
Jim

[thirdreich.ca]

From the maker of the Knight's Cross Folder & Document

Hello;
I am the maker of the Knight's Cross Folder and Document sets that has been discussed on your forum recently. Many thanks to those who had such nice things to say about the sets.

I feel I ought to write and clear up a few matters.

First, the sets were researched by myself and a few well known experts on this matter to be sure they were as close to the originals as possible. No stone was left unturned in our quest for accuracy. We even got the brown cardboard box it came in down pat.

There was a comment about the perceived low quality leather we use. The leather we use is exactly the same as the originals and is therefore Moroccan goats leather, imported through Morocco. The folder sets are large and require a large goats hide. These are expensive and the landed cost of the hide alone is almost $325. So as you can see, it is not cheap leather that is being used here.

There has been some comments on the vellum we use. Real vellum, as used in the originals, is an animal produce. Not necessarily "calf's skin" as it was suggested. Vellum is the thin layer taken from the "flesh" side of the hide, not the "hair side". A number of different hide types yield vellum.

Unfortunatley in this day and age, the real vellum of the 1940's is not longer available. Instead, we have modern vellum which exhibits a similar plastic smooth vellum feel to it. The modern vellum we use is not cheap parchment vellum. Indeed, parchment paper is often thought to be paper, it was a type of vellum. The original parchment paper was much like vellum. Anyway, the vellum we use is a special order from the manufacturer and is 20% heavier then any vellum you can buy over the counter and must be bought in large rolls. So as you can see, we have gone the distance to acquire the closest match we could to the old type vellum.

Also, on original vellum documents, they were all slightly different and over time may age slightly differently too depending on the run of vellum the hide, how it has been exposed to the elements over time etc. In fact, the color of the inks used for the lettering may also vary over time. The color we use for our fonts was "sampled" from a variety of sources to get as close to the origina type of aged color. The Hitler signature aged differently as it was often signed in black fountain pen or was a facs signature. Our Hitler signature exhibits the layering or overlapping where the ink lines crossed over each other. We are very proud of our Hitler signature and it is an excellent example.

Our folders are build from scratch by a third generation master craftsman who specializes in document restorations. He has many famous and wealthy clients and has done work for some rather well known world class museums.

Our maker is not a cheap fellow to have around, but his old world craftsmenship is evident in each and every KC Folder we build. I can asure you that one of these sets cannot be handmade in a day or two, a lot of hand work and expertise goes into each and every one of them. In fact, no two sets we produce are ever the same.

He gracefully ages each folder and document to perfection, they look totally real and for a retail of $950 each (keeping in mind the hide alone is worth about $350), well for that kind of money you get a wonderful product. At that price it is not for everyone, but our mandate from the start was to build the best re-creation Museum Copy of the set that was possible.

Speaking of Museum Copy. All of our advertising on our dealers sites and on Manion's Auctions always, always clearly states they are Museum Copies, which they are. I would never allow one of our sets to be passed off as original. However, having said that, I suspect that somewhere down the road some one somewhere will unfortunately acquire one and then attempt to re-sell it as original.

This of course would not happen one would think with a "Rommel" or a "Wittmann", but perhaps it might with one of our custom named sets.

Every customer who has received one has been very pleased with them.

We have some orders from collectors who wanted custom sets "named" to the winner of the Ritterkreuz they have in their own collection. A great way to complete that special Knight's Cross collection.

You may also wish to know that we are launching late next month the Oak Leaves version of this award complete with a correctly plated and aged metal gold eagle of the calf's skin cover. This is one large eagle and the tooling and modeling costs have been excessive, but we believe we can produce another Museum Copy of a very desireable document set. In fact, we have received a few advance orders for the "Oaks" set based on the quality of the KC sets that are now on the market.

I hope that this has straightened out a few of the missconceptions surrounding our Ritterkreuz Urkunde und Mappe sets. And thanks again to all who wrote such lovely compliments about our Knght's Cross Folder and Document set. After nearly 5 months or research and experimenting, it is indeed nice to hear such compliments.

Cheers;
Russ

[Chris Liontas]

And why do you make them "aged"--so maybe you can fool some poor sap out of 10,000? Why do they need to be 100% authentic, to fool the unwary collector? There is no reason to put so much work into something, except to make a profit, and the easiest profit is when these are going to sell at Manions for 10K each in five years.

[magprint]

Ritterkreuz Mappe

Chris is correct of course. Sooner or later these will be "passed off" to an unsuspecting new collector at a higher price. As example at Manions for the $400.00 bid price several weeks ago.

The documents and their mappe are indeed very nice reproductions. They are some of the best copies I have seen since the "P. T. Bertschesgarten" copies that were produced in the 60's & 70's.

They are offset printed and gold stamped - which I know is not cheap since I own a printing company. But this is not how the original documents were made.

My comment about the leather was taken "backwards" since the "leather" on the real folders produced by Thiersch was not Moroccan but a cheaper immitation "leather". The better leather was only used on the Diamonds documents and the Ritterkreuz documents for a Feldmarschall.

The parchment on the original documents IS CALFSKIN - The firm that supplied Kobel with her parchment is still in business in Germany. The grandson of the original owner is still operating the business. I just visited him again in October.

I can go on and state maybe 10 things that are different from the originals produced in the Third Reich but this would only give someone (I am not implying the gentleman above who's company produces them for museum copies) the information to "fake" the documents more closely.

These are indeed a good "filler" for your collection. Even at Detlev's reasonable prices the real ones are going for around $11,000. I have paid over three times that for a "big" name guy. So approach these with your eyes wide open. There were only about 2,200 of the real ones produced. If someone, or an auction, has a deal too good to be true it probably is !!

I must also say I don't agree with Russ using the forum as advertising space for his ventures. Seba puts his time and effort into this forum and if vendors wish to sell items they should clear that with him first.

Rich

[Erich B.]

RK documents

I agree Rich--while I haven't seen one of these copies in person, they certainly look impressive in the photos, and I also, if I had an attributed RK missing the document, would have one made. As you note, there are a number of differences between these and the originals--a collector who does his homework will not be fooled--the same with anything these days, from a KVK II to a German Order.
However, they appear to be very high quality representative pieces, good for a filler or for a collector not wanting to spend $11000 plus on an original.
Erich

[Craig Gottlieb]

It should interest you all to know that I purchased one of these - with the neat trick of getting my name and birthdate put on the document, so I'll never be accused of buying a document that can be passed off in the future. The reason I bought it was so that in 30 years, when some "crooked dealer spin" starts circulating that there was the hand-painted version and the printed version, I can point to mine and show that they are wrong. So there'll be at least one guy (me) to help out in a couple of decades, and in the mean time, I'll have a funny toy to play jokes on my friends with (Hey Jason, wanna buy an RK document)?

[Rick Research]

I am, as might be expected, quite ALARMED at the number of you who think "fillers" are nifty neato and "worth" ... $950.

Personally, I don't care if someone had to hang upside down by their tightly clenched prehensile toes from a rope hand braided by blind children out of spiderwebs 800 feet in the air hand-throttling illegally gathered gossamer-winged giant scarab beetles for their wing spot dyes, then driving through land mine salted deserts shooting it out with sodomy-crazed nomadic bandits, all to hand chisel Whatever with Michaelangelo's personal tools on the back of a Stradivarius violin for Just The Right "Authentic" Details--


the final product, no matter WHAT it is, how much it costs to make, how well made, and what it is made out of is still








absolutely worthless being completely devoid of period originality.



If you personally rebuild the Pyramid of Cheops in your backyard, all the neighbors may oooo and ahhh...


but it is still NOT the Pyramid of Cheops. It's a big stone thing YOU built in your backyard.

If you think "fillers" are OK, then you can stop worrying about originals and JUST BUY MEANINGLESS REPRODUCTIONS.

If all that matters is the Pretty Picture hanging on a wall, a XEROX or a SCAN PRINTOUT is a whole lot cheaper for the same (=none) historical significance.

950 bucks buys a Whole Lotta REAL out there, people.

[landsknechte]

It should interest you all to know that I purchased one of these - with the neat trick of getting my name and birthdate put on the document, so I'll never be accused of buying a document that can be passed off in the future. The reason I bought it was so that in 30 years, when some "crooked dealer spin" starts circulating that there was the hand-painted version and the printed version, I can point to mine and show that they are wrong. So there'll be at least one guy (me) to help out in a couple of decades, and in the mean time, I'll have a funny toy to play jokes on my friends with (Hey Jason, wanna buy an RK document)?

...and they'll come up with an story about the long lost SS Kalifornisch Freikorps to legitimize the document.

[George Stimson]

"950 bucks buys a Whole Lotta REAL out there, people."

Well put, Rick. I'd rather have a hole in my collection than a "$950 on a repro" hole in my bank account.

[atcase]

Hi all,
sorry to see these, but surely the word COPY or some other distinguishing mark could have been made on the items somewhere ????

[Rick Research]

A prize, that man! "...somewhere down the road some one somewhere will unfortunately acquire one and then attempt to re-sell it as original."

Now INTENTION comes thundering along behind that REALIZATION: what is going to be DONE about this? There is no LEGITIMATE reason NOT to mark something as non-original...


which is NOT original. What's it going to be???

[George Stimson]

question for thirdreich.ca

"Speaking of Museum Copy. All of our advertising on our dealers sites and on Manion's Auctions always, always clearly states they are Museum Copies, which they are. I would never allow one of our sets to be passed off as original. However, having said that, I suspect that somewhere down the road some one somewhere will unfortunately acquire one and then attempt to re-sell it as original."

Why not eliminate that unfortunate possiblity absolutely by printing "REPRODUCTION" in large letters on the reverse of each doc you make?

[Kloster]

There is 1 atleast, but noone knows if there are more, but this is a special mapp, extreem good quality, can fool just everyone - its fake offcurs, the only way to know that, is by looking for a diamond mark somewhere on the award doc, the faker was somewhat nice enough to add it there...

Kloster

[sb98]

$950 for a fake. I could sure use that much money towards some nice REAL things. Some people truly do have money to burn. To me a fake is a fake is not real is a fake no matter if it's a cloth breast eagle, a driver's qualification badge, or an EK. I just don't want it. It's just bits of scrap with no historical meaning (which a lot of thieves try to sell for the price of the real thing) . If it's ok to have a fake document for your RK, why not save the money and get a fake RK in the first place. In fact, don't get the document and spend the $950 on a slew of fakes. You could have a PAB 75, Pilot badge, RK w/ Oak leaf and swords, Gold CCC, U-Boat badge, SS Runes, a Spanish Cross, and still have money left over for imitation crab meat Sushi.

Of course this guy is making these to intentionally deceive. The potential for huge profits is just to big. It's like money laundering, he just needs a couple transactions to insulate himself. He sells one as a "copy". Some "unscrupulous dealer" buys it and sells it as real to an "unsuspecting collector". That collector then sells what he "honestly thinks" is a good piece for big bucks. He is safe because he bought it as "real" and "didn't know any better". Then they, or he (this could all be done on the net by one person) split the big profits. So what, it takes a couple years to realize their huge profits?

Tim