Knight´s Cross "4"

[Dave Kane]

3

[VIPER]

Is That One Of The Dipping Ring Jobs. Were They Not Made With A Different Die....just Want To Know.

[Dave Kane]

The pics are rushed but I think they show a fairly clean area

[VIPER]

OK show the dent row

[Dave Kane]

Is That One Of The Dipping Ring Jobs. Were They Not Made With A Different Die....just Want To Know.

That's a very poor approach to research Jimmy! First Dietrich is accused of manipulating photos and now you accuse me of something akin to it

Why?

[VIPER]

That's a very poor approach to research Jimmy! First Dietrich is accused of manipulating photos and now you accuse me of something akin to it

Why?

No, It is just the angle and if you have found something significant. I want to try and place it in sequence. I just want to check the other B type qualifiers........Nothing wrong with asking I hope. We are looking for timelines and whats the reverse marking.

[Dave Kane]

Actually, a PISS poor approach to research and even a worse avenue to open communication and discussion!

[Dave Kane]

OK show the dent row

Jimmy, you are quite the character.....

Do you really think that collectors are manipulating photos and pieces just to disagree with your position?

Utilizing your accusatory approach you will never compile data to support or discount a position.

[VIPER]

No actually if it came across that way I apologise. I am currently on a portable Blackberry and I was just in a hurry and trying to use as few words as possible....j

[VIPER]

Jimmy, you are quite the character.....

Do you really think that collectors are manipulating photos and pieces just to disagree with your position?

Utilizing your accusatory approach you will never compile data to support or discount a position.

NO. Dave I am just trying too see the whole cross....not accusing you of anything. Why so sensitive all of a sudden.

[Leroy]

Ok, now where to?

Once everyone stops fighting....an 800-4 with the fully involved 6-9 flaw.

I hope everyone realizes that the 800-4 and 935-4 may be moving to the "alternating feed" possibility.

Keep the photos coming! It IS research, however many people kill each other in the process. (I understand that in the Manhattan project, scientists used to throw chairs and lab equipment at each other.)

[VIPER]

Once everyone stops fighting....an 800-4 with the fully involved 6-9 flaw.

I hope everyone realizes that the 800-4 and 935-4 may be moving to the "alternating feed" possibility.

Keep the photos coming! It IS research, however many people kill each other in the process. (I understand that in the Manhattan project, scientists used to throw chairs and lab equipment at each other.)

Leroy may have a point. Show the back of the cross 6/9 knee and the good old dent row just for comparison.

[Brian S]

If this cross was awarded in September 1943 and if the 800-4 are earlier as is so vehemently proclaimed then I only have one question:

"Why is there not ONE recipient out of the at least 3999 (55% of all recipients) who got a Knights Cross after Sept. 43 with a 800-4? I mean proven!"

Isn't that somewhat puzzling and against all odds?

You're holding back on us Dietrich. Please, begin to publish the awarded crosses of the 3,999 by manufacturer. That will be great, thank you so much.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Brian,

you are not up to date...I did not hold back on anything - you just don't know it!

I did not publish the 3999 RK holder since I don't have those data - but I published a very nice statistics which has grown considerably since publication.

You know, it is kind of predicting who won an election by collecting representive data and exit polls. Laws of statistics.

[Leroy]

I did not publish the 3999 RK holder since I don't have those data - but I published a very nice statistics which has grown considerably since publication.

You know, it is kind of predicting who won an election by collecting representive data and exit polls. Laws of statistics.

As Mark Twain observed: "There are lies. There are damn lies. Then there are statistics!" (Not implying you are lying, Dietrich, so don't get upset. Just pointing out the true nature of statistics.)

Dietrich, I bet Obama would have liked to have had you in Texas!

For the very great bulk of all RK winners (not just the "3999"), and you know this, there is absolutely no data correlating particular types of crosses with particular winners. Absolutely, SOME crosses can be matched by photograph because of unique details visible on the obverse of the crosses. That is not true with S&L, even with "B" flawed types, except POSSIBLY in ultra close glossy original photos, which don't seem to be around very much). Until and unless the award of each of those 3999 can be matched, there is nothing with any degree of credibility on which statistics can be based, because there is INSUFFICIENT DATA and INSUFFICIENT CORRELATION OF SURROUNDING CONDITIONS WITH WHAT DATA DOES EXIST. Without going through all of this again, how often would you REALLY expect to find an 800-4? Let's say (and of course, this is SPECULATION) S&L made half of those last awarded crosses. 2000. Maybe 5% were 800-4's (again, SPECULATION, but with some basis in Detlev's claimed experience). That's 100. Let's say they made the same percentage of 935-4's (although I'm not aware of that claim). That's 100. As you have so readily pointed out, you haven't found even 1 of either type YOU PERSONALLY BELIEVE to have been awarded. (This, of course, rejects all vet provenance of any type, either here or in Germany, which does exist for both types and which is really the only provenance there can be, outside of written official documents, which don't exist for any crosses. "Dear Herr Oberst - I am delighted to present you with this fine Lazy 2 Juncker cross..."). So this KILLS "B" type crosses???? S&L, the great cross producer, once the die failed, just didn't make or supply any more during the war? (BUT cranked up again a week after the war was over to supply the "armed tourists"?)

Is there any common sense left here?

I, for one, want real information. I have been begging for it. Some is starting to come in, as a result of this thread and several others. Example: Ludenschied was taken by the Americans, not the British. Some of those same Americans may have actually been close to Klessheim within the following weeks. Astonishingly, because no one was willing to challenge, or think "outside the box", or do basic research (and I include not just you and Dave in this, but me and MANY others, too), we learned this for the first time in the last day! Similarly, Ludwig's cross has a provenance back to 1943 (although that does not fit any "accepted" timeline). That information was out there in a very old thread, but overlooked or ignored. What else are we missing?

So keep talking, keep fighting, keep screaming, but, above all, KEEP THINKING.
This cannot be personal, so let's just park the egos at the door and keep going. We need more to participate, without fear of getting their hands dirty or being yelled at.............No one here should feel immune to criticism or be afraid to be wrong. The last time I looked, Jesus Christ wasn't posting here.