Finally the first genuine marked DKG by S&L I've seen

[Yuri D.]

Looks like the wreath on my DKG is a lot more detailed than on the last 1957 one shown here.

Yuri

[François SAEZ]

I like none of the crosses posted on this thread, as for me they are all made from 57's version.

[George Stimson]

Francois,

Do you think that wartime S&L DKs exist?

[Yuri D.]

If S&L DKGs didn't exist before 1945, why is there a section for them on this site and a page in Gordon's book? A very respected dealer stated to me that he would NEVER EVER have an S&L DKG on his web site, and that they are ALL of post 1945 production.

Yuri

Francois,

Do you think that wartime S&L DKs exist?

[François SAEZ]

why is there a section for them on this site and a page in Gordon's book?....Yuri

Well I tought the part of the article on this maker was VERY CLEAR

"STEINHAUER & LÜCK, LÜDENSCHEID,
Marked "4" outside, 4 rivets donuts
(source IMM: article C. von Tettineck)
Marked "4" outside, 4 round hollow rivets (donuts). It presents a fine matt silver or gold coloured wreath then polished. The catch is soldered to an oval piece of metal. The hook is of a round section and soldered to a round piece of metal. Silver Star: 63.00mm X 63.00mm
Wreath: 39.00mm
Swastika: 21.05mm
Weight: 52.0gr
Catch: 11.0mm
* To be noted, we never had one in our hands.
Opinions vary if this maker has produced this medal during the war. "

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/germ...hauer_luck.htm

concerning Gordon 's book, only Gordon can answer

[Yuri D.]

By the way, both the silver star and the black star are made from CUPAL on my DKG. The aluminum plating has worn off in several edges of either star and you can see the copper core.

So now I don't know what to do. The DKG is $1400 if I decide to keep it. That's too expensive for an item that is condemned by 90% of the viewership. What is really upsetting me is that I feel that it is genuine, not only because of how well it's put together, but by the wear and aging of this DKG.

I would keep this DKG if I could. Because in 5 years, or maybe 10 years, evidence may be discovered to confirm my feelings about this DKG, and the only example that I've seen or touched would have evaporated.

Thank you to everyone for allowing me to keep my money in my pocket, and sealing the fate of all 1957 DKGs as post-war, because if any of them had a chance of being pre April 1945, it was this one, on my opinion.

[Brian S]

Bottom line is if a respected expert who has had the good fortune to receive thousands of items directly from the vet and their families has never seen an S&L DKiG, I'd personally be inclined to believe they were not produced war time. A person just has to be willing to 'take a chance' if they disagree.

[George Stimson]

Just asking

So the reasoning is that Steinhauer & Luck never made the DK pre-1945 but that after the war they went to the trouble and expense of manufacturing dies for a 1941-style DK and then made at least one (Yuri's example) with the same materials and of the same quality as those made by other known makers (Klein, Zimmermann) and then put their P number on it identifying it as their product even though it would be illegal for them to do so? I mean, surely the West German government could determine whether S&L made DKs during the war. And if the company didn't make them during the war, they couldn't say that these post-war pieces were leftovers, as they could with their post-1945 RKs. And then they would be setting themselves up for legal trouble, yes?
And as for the web site article, the only thing that's clear about it to me is that it's inconclusive.

[Brian S]

George, isn't this the same company that when a friend of Gordon's asked for some RK's, S&L asked him, with or without Swastikas? The '4' stamp was still extant, so, it doesn't seem like a stretch.

However, it's the enamel swastika that has me confused... But, they could have been considering the manufacture and purchased parts. Or, like the balloon badge, a few examples may have been produced and Yuri's is one of those of the rarest items.

Bottom line, take the risk or don't. Logically this can go in either direction. At this moment, inconclusive.

[Gordon Williamson]

“concerning Gordon 's book, only Gordon can answer”



And I should think the answer to that is rather obvious. The S&L DK is in my book because I firmly believe they manufactured them pre-May 1945. I haven’t heard anything approaching a cogent or logical argument for S&L DKs being a purely post-war phenomenon.



Re the article on this site. –



“Deutsche Kreuz in Gold, no maker BUT with the characteristics of Steinhauer & Lück.
Width: 63,60 mm
Height: 63,50 mm
Weight: 52,43 gr.
Steinhauer & Lück's DK tooling did indeed survive the war. Postwar copies are found in several forms. Poor enamelling is a good indicator of the postwar fakes, though on some it is pretty well done. Another point to look for is the finish on the black inner star which looks more like chemically "blued" than the black finish you find on originals.”



How could something survive the war if it didn’t exist until afterthe war. ?



Early 57 S&L DKs, using leftover wartime parts, have the conventional mid-late war die-cast back-plate with the “sandwich” cupal start and recessed location points for the hinge and hook plate. Late 57 S&L DKs were heavier with die struck brass back-plates with smooth reverses, no locating points.



If no S&L DKs were made during the war, why on earth would they, in the late fifties, create a die set for casting old style back-plates, then a few years later go to the expense of making new tooling for a heavy die struck metal back-plate. Given the small production numbers for 57 pieces, there would be no economic sense in this. It is well enough known that S&L used left over wartime component stocks in much of the early 57 stuff.



As for them not being around before the 70 / 80s. How many people even noticed the existence of “Round 3” EKs before the 90s, let alone the 70s. Are we to assume these are all fake too, because they weren’t noted in reference books until recently? Hardly a convincing argument.

[Brian S]

That's a compelling arguement in favor...

Gordon, can you post good pictures of early and late '57's to illustrate your arguement?

[George Stimson]

"George, isn't this the same company that when a friend of Gordon's asked for some RK's, S&L asked him, with or without Swastikas? The '4' stamp was still extant, so, it doesn't seem like a stretch."

Yeah, but S&L made RKs during the war. If some Bundescop walked in with a post-war "4" marked RK and said, "What's this?" the company could just say, "It's a leftover from before 1945." They couldn't do that with a "4" marked DK if they hadn't made them during the war. And the government would be able to find that out. And if S&L hadn't made them during the war, they would be inviting trouble by making them after the war with their maker mark.
Just thoughts....

[Stijn David]

S&L marked DK's

Hello,


In regards towards the making of the DK tooling etc ... after the war, that does indeed not make sence from a economical way. But then again why could the firm of S&L not simply have bought original die's after the war from other company's who did produced them (DK's) during the war ????.


Cordial greetings,

[Yuri D.]

I've contacted Steunhauer & Lück in Germany to see if they made this award pre April 1945. I eagerly await their response.

Yuri

[Gordon Williamson]

Left -57 with wartime cast cupal backplate. Right-57 with postwar die-struck plated brass backplate. Backplates from different tooling.

"But then again why could the firm of S&L not simply have bought original die's after the war from other company's who did produced them (DK's) during the war ????."

Because if they had, the backplate would match that of another known maker. It doesn't.