Finally the first genuine marked DKG by S&L I've seen

[Yuri D.]

Another rivet

[Yuri D.]

Another closeup of the wreath:

[Sal Williams]

Hi guys,
The S&L question again. It seems that S&L due to their post war badges and copy practices are always good for a debate. Nobody seems to get any word out of them either. I suggest again that An organized approach towards S&L could get answers. I don't think the power of this organization has been used to its potential. I would like to see a group of S&L questions put together and then submitted with the clout of this organization behind it to S&L directly. This seems like a worthy and hisorically valuable service Wehrmact association could provide to the collecting world. Why don't we try it. Sebastian must have wehrmacht awards stationary somewhere. It seems this undertaking would be a feather in the cap if sucessful.
Best, Sal

[M. Zimmer]

Can we get Herr Geissler to look at Yuri's badge?

Hello George,

Harald has no PC, I will see him next Friday on his collectors meeting in Naila and will show him the pictures of Yuri´s DK.
But the best would be if Harald could hold the Dk in his hands.
Yuri, if you want to contact Mr. Geißler, please send me an email.

Greetings

Mathias

[Ed Tainton]

Pictures

You must have good scanner or your good at photo work. Nice pictures

[Gordon Williamson]

Hello,


It is pretty clear that Mr.Geissler believes in these crosses otherwise he never would sell this cross and the suggestion you make in the above is totally out of the air. Mr.Geissler is a very sincere collector and a noted and honourable figure in the militaria collecting world and he already helped me enourmous in the past. His reputation etc .... as well as yours is not the issue here and please do not take this thread personal.

Mathias quite clearly stated that he got his DK from Harald Geissler, a highly respected authority. Geissler states in his book in a caption to a photo of what are clearly S&L 57 DKs with the regular S&L wreath that the early 57s were made from leftover wartime stock. You then said that this does "not mean that these parts where originally made by S&L during 1941/45!!!!". Your post #15 makes your opinion of S&L DKs quite clear. If you are contesting Geissler's claim that these were made pre 1945, what exactly were you trying to suggest "out of the air" ?????????

As towards the S&L crosses, wich one of the 2 presented crosses seems to be the good ones then?, the wreaths of Yuri's and Mr.Zimmer are different etc .... ?

I said quite clearly in Post #30 that Mathias DK is one I would consider to be textbook and exactly how I would expect a wartime S&L DK to look.

Iff fakers can nowadays produce near perfect copy's of almost all awards I simply do not see why they could not drill out rivets etc .... ? => the main reason for this one is quite obvious IMHO : the $$$$$$$$$ involved.

The ability to do it is not in doubt. The point in doing it when versions with the swastika, made with the same left over wartime parts, were already available is what makes no sense.

I suggest again that An organized approach towards S&L could get answers. I don't think the power of this organization has been used to its potential. I would like to see a group of S&L questions put together and then submitted with the clout of this organization behind it to S&L directly. This seems like a worthy and hisorically valuable service Wehrmact association could provide to the collecting world.

Sal, I can understand why you would think that would work. I very much doubt it would. Political correctness in Germany is worse than ever and few firms will talk about their involvement in any produce for the Nazi government. If they received an approach and decided to check out the site, saw all these postings by people using little swastikas in their Atavars, I can guess what they'd think.

The Bundesarchiv in Berlin holds the surviving files of the Präsidialkanzlei of which the Ordenskanzlei was part. I know for a fact that there are files on the DK there ( File R601 Präsidialkanzlei 940 / Gr.17 Nr 3 for one ) though I don't know how extensive they are. You must visit the Bundesarchiv personally to examine the files. We have members in Berlin. There is info in Berlin. It would seem that this might be much more productive than an approach to S&L. I have already seen one firm which told on researcher that they did make a specific award, then told the next one who approached them that they didn't!!
Original period documentation would provide a far more definitive answer for those who still need proof that S&L made the DK before May 1945.
Personally I don't have any doubt that they made them, or that they looked just like the piece Mathias has.

[Yuri D.]

My DKG is going back on Monday. So If Mr. Geißler is able to look at images of this item tomorrow, this would be optimal.

Yuri

[Sal Williams]

Thank you Gordon,
Well next time I'm in berlin I will do it. When that time comes if I can contact you as to where to go and what to look for that would be great. I would enjoy that sort of thing a lot.
Best, Sal

[M. Zimmer]

My DKG is going back on Monday. So If Mr. Geißler is able to look at images of this item tomorrow, this would be optimal.

Yuri

Yuri,

I will send the pictures tomorrow to Harald, they will arrive on Tuesday, to late for you ?

Mathias

[Luftm40]

Items like this are tough. It certainly seems logical that SL may have made the DKiG...I mean why not?... they were prolific and made most everything else. In some ways, it would seem more odd that they DIDN'T. On the other hand, if real, these items are apparently rare. I tend to spend money (especially large sums of money) only on things I have seen with my own eyes. 20 DKiG, Deschler etc...I have seen those for many years...in groups, from vets and other out of the woodwork sources..so I m comfortable with them. Maybe they are just more common than the SLs, but I'm content with the common versions for now. At the end of the day, it seems all you are left with is the say so of a German author/collector/dealer. If that makes it for you, keep the medal and enjoy it. If not pass

[Yuri D.]

Mathias,

That would be too late for me. Monday probably at the latest.

Yuri

[M. Zimmer]

Mathias,

That would be too late for me. Monday probably at the latest.

Yuri

HelloYuri,

the earliest time to send the pictures is Monday 8.00 o´clock CET, when the postoffice opens. Sorry, Harald has no PC, I can´t send him an email, but I spoke to him yesterday and he knows about our discussion.
My personal opinion is: keep your hands off this DKiG. I´m collecting for 5 years intensively and had many DK in my hands, what I don´t like on yours is the wreath, which looks like a Deschler, and the hinge, which normaly looks like a flat "C" on genuin S&L DKs.
Half a year ago I sold a S&L DKiG, and Harald had a DKiS marked "4" a few weeks ago. There is always comming up something. Let me know, if you are interested to be informed, when a S&L DKiG is be offered here in my region. All my Dks you can see at the collectors forum.
By the way , K. Winkler ( www.nordheideversand.de ) sold a S&L DKiG last year. look at its archiv to compare.

greetings

Mathias

[Michael Kuligowski]

wow !! thats a old threead

guys I am seriously thinking about this cross - can You please tell me what is a verdict on unmarked S&L's like this one ???:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...wpost&t=165226

[Seigfried]

wow !! thats a old threead

guys I am seriously thinking about this cross - can You please tell me what is a verdict on unmarked S&L's like this one ???:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...wpost&t=165226

So am I! The WAF states 'To be noted, we never had one in our hands. Opinions vary if this maker has produced this medal during the war. ' ( http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/germ...hauer_luck.htm )
The S&L is not mentioned in DNs catalogue. It is however mentioned in G Williamson's book but with no allusion to the originality. I would be interested in what the 'big guns' say too