Until the Third Reich, the Iron Cross was a Prussian State award. Prussia awarded it to anyone, from any state, whom the Prussian ruler deemed fit. It became national under the Third Reich.
Bob Hritz
Bob Hritz
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In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound. -
German troops have already faced an armed enemy, as part of Enduring Freedom. German troops have already fallen to said enemy during said operation. Further, German troops have been promised for the duration of Operation Enduring Freedom - wherever this Operation takes Allied troops next. I haven't read any accounts of individual German soldier activity, but I'm sure that at some point, the criteria for the EK has been and/or will be met. There should be an award fitting of the act!Last edited by Mike H.; 03-21-2002, 02:38 AM.Comment
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Totally agree with Bill and Mike,
Just as long as the liberal fanatics don't start calling it the "Fourth Reich"!!! Oooops!
CJComment
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I am sorry to destroy your dreams, but this newsclip about reinstituting the EK is clearly a fake. Something like this would be discussed widely and wildly in nowadays Germany. I haven´t heard about it yet and I am sure nor did our other German forum members. This newsclip reads like something out of the German satirical magazine "Titanic", the name of the reporter/journalist being a very strong indicator for it.
Cheers, FrankCheers, Frank
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Even if the article is satirical, I'd like to hear some opinions on the subject from our German friends.
A couple of questions come to mind:
1) If my limited knowledge of German history is correct, the EK was always instituted by Imperial decree, or in the case of the 1939, by der Fuhrer. Given today's democratic Germany, would, or COULD re-institution of the the iron cross pass muster, or would it get totally bogged down in debate? Or, is the iron cross still considered the honorable symbol it was in the past by the majority of Germans?
2) Seems to me that the iron cross has only been instituted when German borders were being defended (I know there a different perspectives and opinions on that one.....) It's true that fighting terrorism is really a defense of a nation's borders, but I'm not sure this war is really comparable to those of the past. Is there a strong public opinion in Germany on whether this war on terrorism is in defense of the Fatherland, as well as being a commitment to help it's allies?Comment
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Aren't they already in place?
Remember the 1957 issue pieces to replace those with the hackenkreuz? I am sure someone will point out that the awards are already in place for military action in combat. The world community and the German government approved of the 57 issue pieces. Bring back the EK? Well it has never been gone. This is the first time since WWII that German forces have been in action. Up until now they were only deployed under the UN as peacekeepers. I don't think the German government has to ask anyone permission any more. I know the German population will support the awards especially since they hate the Euro.Comment
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As Gordon W. (I think) pointed out in a recent post, the "1957" EK was only a substitute for wear by previous owners of the 1939 Iron Cross. The 1957 law outlawed the wearing of awards showing the swastica, and permitted the new design, but it was not a reinstatement of the award. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but no new 1939 (1957) EK's have been awarded since 1945.
This is why it appears that the downfall of the Third Reich was the final downfall of the Iron Cross. Or was it?Comment
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Dear all,
The thing about the reissue of III Reich medals in 1957 was due to the fact that, under the pressure of several veterans' organizations, the German government had to allow veterans to wear medals without the svastika, which is an anti-constitutional emblem. I am asking myself: Until when? In 500-1000 years will still prohibited to show the swastika or you will have to stick a piece of paper to hide it in order to sell a medal during a Militaria show in Germany?
As you might know Germans have always been very "gründlich" (they like to go to the bottom of the problem or achieve success costs what it costs) with everything they undertook. Now they are not different. I notice this kind of behavior with my Swiss-German compatriots (I am Swiss-Italian). In Switzerland is prohibited for instance for Militia soldiers and officers to wear any kind of medal of orders: very likely we are the only country on the planet not to have military medals or orders (that's why I am collecting them... you could say). German people have been always quite extreme when they had to take decisions: totally for nazi or totally against it. Maybe this is a bit a simply explained but it gives the idea how I think their mentality is (I am half Swiss-German too!).
I would be totally for the reinstatement of the Iron Cross, because it represents the soul of national pride and the desire of independence (this medal was created Prof. Schinkel with the authorization of Frederick III of Prussia during the "Befreiungskriege" - wars of liberation - against Napoleon). So I don't know what is really the big deal... Go on with it! It has nothing to do with Nazism, also if the nazi tried to use this symbol for its own cause. Actually Hitler hated the old aristocratic Prussian officer's corps and the General staff officers who really represented the real soul of German military traditions... Furthermore these officers were the only ones who tried several times to assassinate the Führer. What I want to say is that if you for Imperial military traditions or pre-nazi military traditions in general you are de-facto an anti-nazi.
My thoughts about the ribbon's color for a new hypothetical Iron Cross, version 2002: I would keep the WW2 ribbon just substituting the color white with yellow-gold. Not that I like it, but at least it's more acceptable or politically correct (I hate this latter expression... I am so against it).
My brother and I already tried to draw some nice medals for the Switzerland, since they don't have anything...
What do you think? Yes, I know... It doesn't have anything to do with Swiss military traditions but at least it looks good.... We could create a new military order for Switzerland, too:
If you look at the medals they are producing/creating nowadays, you got the impression that they are trying to do everything to destroy the soul of bravery awards (look at Germany and all the other occidental countries...). I like good looking things, like most Latin people as you can notice… (good cars, good women, good food and why not martial and good looking medals and orders).
Just my 0.2 Euro cents (perhaps not even that... my 0.2 Swiss franc cents).
Ciao,
ClaudioComment
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Another thing about Iron Crosses....
They were only instituted for wars of indipendance or wars critical to the German struggle as whole nation... so I can draw your conclusions!
It would be interesting the reintroduce the "Pour le Mérite" but also this decoration was quite anti-democratic towards today's Germany feelings: it was in fact given only to officers and aristocrats...
Ciao,
Claudio OrtelliComment
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The swastika is on its way back...
I'm being facetious of course, but there is no doubt in my mind that the constitution will eventually be amended to remove the prohibition of the hakenkruez. Don't hold your breathe waiting, I think only our younger members will see it. All the veterans and survivors will have to pass on first. 20 or 30 years from now....
In the fevor of the late 1940s it was needed, but it almost seems silly now. All of that German angst is now directed at making sure you reuse your hotel towels. The same tenacity that was displayed in the Kurland pocket is now directed at making sure there arent any PCBs in the water....
How times have changed....
DaveComment
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The Iron Cross cannot be resumed unless the safety of the nation is threatened by the (gasp!
) Traditional Enemy-- France. That's not likely, thank God, to ever happen again in any future we can foresee.
Just as no Iron Cross was revived for Imperial Germany's various colonial campaigns between 1871 and 1914, "continental war" circumstances also do not apply now.Comment
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That's a good one, Rick
Germany "threatened" by France? Thanks, Rick. I always enjoy a good laugh!
GeorgeGeorgeComment
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George, before we incur the wrath of Denis and Francois, don't forget that France during Napolean I's rule was a power to be reckoned with. The Prussians had to earn their EK's.
Come to think of it, they still wield a lot of power. Look at what one waffling French ice skating judge did--created two weeks of headlines for the world media.
Or, take the lack of cooperation from some in France in refusing to provide any information about the scumbag terrorist-almost-hijacker Musawi, the French national, under the guise of taking a stand against capital punishment. After his gang of pinheads kills 3,000 innocents, France is taking a stand which may withold information that could save more lives in the future!??? Because "we are against the capital punishment"??!!! Real pretzel logic......... Bring back the guillotine and make sure the blade is painfully dull when used on terrorists.
Okay now, back to the Iron Cross, eh?Last edited by Doug See; 03-21-2002, 01:27 PM.Comment
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Okay, so the French are a force to be reckoned with -- if you try to invade their country on figure skates!
GeorgeLast edited by George Stimson; 03-21-2002, 07:38 PM.GeorgeComment
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shhhh just tallking about invading will cause them to surrender....Comment
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