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**Trance_Eyes** · 03-31-2009, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Sal Williams View Post

You are misunderstanding what is being said. There is very much doubt that a droop tail SC was ever made. Don't use the Niemann book except as a price guide as it was intended.

Yes I can see but you'll get arguments both ways so as a learner I just go with the flow. personally I like the look of the no droop tail eagle better so when I eventually get my hands on a "Good" S/C it will be of this variety. I think its the safest bet considering the debate and scepticism involved with such a piece. I have no desire to sit and debate droop or non droop tailed variations, I only want a "Good" undeniable example. Thanks for your concern though

**Leroy** · 03-31-2009, 07:41 PM

I personally believe that anyone who wants a "for sure real" Spanish Cross should elect AT THIS TIME to go for the non-droop tail version by an acknowledged maker. I am convinced that this WILL change in the collector community, but it hasn't yet. I'm fortunate enough to have acquired over the years examples of each class in the "regular" configuration, so now I'm "free" to explore alternatives, which I DO believe were made during the war. Few and far between, perhaps, but still, in my opinion, out there.

**Sal Williams** · 03-31-2009, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by Joey Charles View Post

Hi Sal have you any proof that they didnt exist.Joey

Have you any proof they did? It would be hard to "prove" that one or 2 unicorns don't exist in some cave somewhere as well. Luckily most rational people agree that it would require evidence to prove they DO exist, not that they do NOT exist.

**andrewb** · 03-31-2009, 08:11 PM

Leroy,

What is your view on post 13 and 15 of this link?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=sc+nok

Regards,
AB.

**Leroy** · 03-31-2009, 08:49 PM

AB,
I trust implicitly anything Bob relates about the early days of this hobby. It's my belief that many manufacturers made, during the war, versions of badges we condemn as solely postwar today. I have heard from many older collectors and dealers that Souval also (as Bob relates) acquired original wartime dies from German companies which went out of business in 1945. So, Souval had, and sold, originals made during the war, copies made from its own original dies and the original dies of others, and copies made from brand-new dies (their RK is a perfect example of a core design which did not exist during the war). It is very hard, and very wrong, in my view, to take the "absolute" tack many collectors do today.
For me, a good example is the ball-hinge glider badge. Although not included in Stijn's very good book (and in fact firmly believed by him not to be real), I am absolutley convinced, as are many other LW collectors, that these WERE made during the war, but are now the victim of these "absolute" theories. I personally have one from a vet, as do other collectors. Not everything we don't know about is "a postwar occupation souvenir".
Best,
Leroy

**andrewb** · 03-31-2009, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

AB,
It's my belief that many manufacturers made, during the war, versions of badges we condemn as solely postwar today.

And visa versa Leroy. The "Rounder" is one that comes to mind. This RK was regarded for so long as a wartime made piece until of course it was proven not to be. I also have a SCIS with droop tails and can easily get my hands on a NOK with the same so although I believe they are postwar made, I'm quietly hoping one, just one photo....... emerges with a droop tail SC in wear.

I'm not holding my breath but it would put an end to it once and for all.

Regards,
AB.

**Leroy** · 03-31-2009, 10:49 PM

AB,
I agree with you about the absolute huge quantity of postwar fakes, including, of course, the Rounder. And, like you, I also want a photo to be able to confirm to the collector community what I personally BELIEVE to be true.

The Rounder fooled a LOT of people, but it didn't fool everybody, and there is very good reason to believe that some (NOT all) of those who proclaimed it as real knew, in fact, that it was not. There is a long line of dirt in this hobby, going back many years. Not surprisingly, the weapon used to fight this is a belief that a piece, in order to achieve legitimacy, MUST match in appearance other KNOWN examples or be confirmed by clear photographic evidence. That is the safe way, that is the prudent way...but it should not be the only way. While it is true that a willingness to accept something different is an "open invitation" to fakers, it is also true that almost every fake out there has ONE key flaw which will give it away. Many times, a fake is judged a fake solely because of its visual design. The truth is, however, that in almost every case there is another flaw, a more important and more reliable flaw, which may be very subtle to detect, and that is in the materials used to create the fake. That's what tripped up the Rounder. It is THAT type of flaw, and not the "design" flaw, or the "lack of photographic evidence" flaw which (I think) we should always be looking for. The badge and medal manufacturing (as well as the uniform and equpment) industry involved many, many companies. For badges and medals, the number was certainly close to 100; for uniforms, it was certainly in the 1000's, including many "Mom and Pop" operations. In truth, we DO NOT KNOW what every company made or did not make during the war, nor do we know, with any certainty, exactly what variants are, or are not, legitimately out there. We ARE getting closer to such knowledge, but that day has not yet arrived. I will bet you that the vast majority (if not all) fake badges use the wrong metal, or the wrong paint, or the wrong "finish" composition, or the wrong hardware, or the wrong die-striking or casting technique, or the wrong solder, etc., etc. In other words, there is always something wrong PHYSICALLY with the badge, totally apart from its appearance or apparent deviation from accepted exact design parameters. (In all liklihood, the Rounder would still be with us if it had used the correct paint) (and also, of course, avoided the use of multiple manufacturer marks.)

I have perhaps stated this badly. What I mean is that design, while extremely important, of course, cannot be the sole determining factor. The actual physical nature of the material itself is, to me, the real key.
Best,
Leroy

**Ludwig** · 04-01-2009, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by Joey Charles View Post

Hi Sal have you any proof that they didnt exist.Joey

It´s almost impossible to prove that a thing did/does not exist! In this case it´s more: can you prove it was produced durine the Third Reich era? Otherwise it would be very difficult to sell it.

**Ludwig** · 04-01-2009, 02:14 AM

Sorry, I forgot:

**andrewb** · 04-01-2009, 02:22 AM

I understand exactly what you are saying Leroy. Well perhaps it's time that the same course of action that was applied to the "Rounder" be done to the "Droop tail" in order to determine whether any postwar materials are used in them. But how many would have to be tested to satisfy that they are either good or bad??
What if it's bad. Are they all bad?? What if it's good. are they all good?? If good then that would only establish that it was made with the correct materials but not when it was made. And so it goes, on and on.

I personally would be convinced with a photo.

Regards,
AB.

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