S&l ??

[Robin Lumsden]

I can prove to the opposite. I was around last week. At least I thought so ...

But Dietrich.

The 'evil genius' philosophical argument is that the earth and everything on it could have been created yesterday, with our memories pre-programmed to believe in the existence of a past.

So can anyone really prove they were not created yesterday.............no, by that argument they can't.

So maybe all these RKs are just a day old!

[Robin Lumsden]

Gentlemen, steady as she goes ....

I agree.

[Bob Hritz]

To answer several questions:

I have never had a cafeteria board with a Spanish Cross or Anti Partisan Badge. If I had, they would be in my collection. I have no problem with the Spanish Crosses posted in this thread. HOWEVER, it must be remembered it is what the collecting community accepts that sets values and authenticity. It is most difficult to prove anything today. We have Steinhauer catalogues with Oak Leaves illustrated, but many will not accept that ST&L produced them. That is the dilemna of evaluating these items. I bought an OS Knight's Cross from Bill Shea. With it came an unmarked set of Oak Leaves that are every bit as well made as any Godet set. I believe it is period original, especially when Bill provided the veteran's information to me. However, it would never sell for the value of a Godet, whether ort not the set was worn by an awardee. This is the economics of collecting and nothing to do with when something was made or used.

I would love to have the large swords version of the Oak Leaves and Swords, the Anti Partisan badge and the Spanish Crosses. The reason I do not buy them is that I must purchase what I believe will enhance my collection without depreciating the value of cost versus recovery.

Since no one is willing to sell any of these items, at the substancial discount of items they consider questionable, I take that as evidence that they are not around in dealer's and collector's junk boxes.

Much like the round pilot badge, which I have first hand seen from US Veterans, they will never have the value equvilent to their rarity.

It is a difficult impasse, and a more sad state of collecting, when everything must be questioned to the extent that veterans are all either liars or delusional. I think that reflects more on the sad state of collectors than anything else. Hence, my reluctance to even bother participating when I am just wasting my time.

Bob Hritz

[Brian S]

This is the difference between Bob and most of the rest of you, Bob collects and has a healthy respect for what is considered by "consensus" to be "real" and what Bob considers to real based on circumstances of acquisition. Bob has told us he certainly understands $$$ value based on your consensus but is willing to collect irregardless of consensus or $$$ value. This is really somthing to respect.

[Leroy]

I would love to have the large swords version of the Oak Leaves and Swords, the Anti Partisan badge and the Spanish Crosses. The reason I do not buy them is that I must purchase what I believe will enhance my collection without depreciating the value of cost versus recovery.

Since no one is willing to sell any of these items, at the substancial discount of items they consider questionable, I take that as evidence that they are not around in dealer's and collector's junk boxes.

Much like the round pilot badge, which I have first hand seen from US Veterans, they will never have the value equvilent to their rarity.

It is a difficult impasse, and a more sad state of collecting, when everything must be questioned to the extent that veterans are all either liars or delusional. I think that reflects more on the sad state of collectors than anything else. Hence, my reluctance to even bother participating when I am just wasting my time.

Bob Hritz

It is impossible to adequately follow up on, or in any way add to, these statements. Bob has separated the true collector from the herd.

[Sal Williams]

Sal.

If that comment was directed at me, the PKZ stuff has already been covered in threads above.

As regards the other issue and agenda...............what do you mean?

I have no interest at all in these boards, other than as a detached observer.

In fact, I was initially quite skeptical about them.

Not so much now.

It was not directed at you Robin.

[Sal Williams]

I suppose you are referring to the 800-4 RK. I can't imagine why the possibility of a PKZ numbering system being earlier rather than later has any effect on this RK, which I have always said was late war.

By the way, Sal (although this is not the place to go off on a tangent on this cross, and I won't do so) have you EVER even seen or handled an 800-4 cross, or is this just another OPINION you have based on nothing?

You may take your highly personally insulting "agenda" comment and stick it....someplace dark.

No I have not Handled an 800/4 . I also recall saying many times that they could be real but there is not enough evidence to be sure, so they are still risky.

You on the other hand have decided to tell us these boards are the fact and the documentation about PKZ #s is now the fiction, and in a court of law the actual documentation by the folks who made the badges would not hold up but the boards which amount to hearsay would.

You use logic that wont fit all the circumstances, announce "facts", and don't answer any questions posed to you after you do so.

[Sal Williams]

To answer several questions:

I have never had a cafeteria board with a Spanish Cross or Anti Partisan Badge. If I had, they would be in my collection. I have no problem with the Spanish Crosses posted in this thread. HOWEVER, it must be remembered it is what the collecting community accepts that sets values and authenticity. It is most difficult to prove anything today. We have Steinhauer catalogues with Oak Leaves illustrated, but many will not accept that ST&L produced them. That is the dilemna of evaluating these items. I bought an OS Knight's Cross from Bill Shea. With it came an unmarked set of Oak Leaves that are every bit as well made as any Godet set. I believe it is period original, especially when Bill provided the veteran's information to me. However, it would never sell for the value of a Godet, whether ort not the set was worn by an awardee. This is the economics of collecting and nothing to do with when something was made or used.

I would love to have the large swords version of the Oak Leaves and Swords, the Anti Partisan badge and the Spanish Crosses. The reason I do not buy them is that I must purchase what I believe will enhance my collection without depreciating the value of cost versus recovery.

Since no one is willing to sell any of these items, at the substancial discount of items they consider questionable, I take that as evidence that they are not around in dealer's and collector's junk boxes.

Much like the round pilot badge, which I have first hand seen from US Veterans, they will never have the value equvilent to their rarity.

It is a difficult impasse, and a more sad state of collecting, when everything must be questioned to the extent that veterans are all either liars or delusional. I think that reflects more on the sad state of collectors than anything else. Hence, my reluctance to even bother participating when I am just wasting my time.

Bob Hritz

Hi Bob, My hestitance comes from the idea that these boards could not have been altered in all these years. A spanish cross in gold without swords and drooptail eagles marked "4" bears some skepticism. The other awards I don't know enough about . The pic of the long swords in wear seems evidence enough to say that there are real ones and the circumstances of this board make me think these could be the same.I just won't subscribe to the idea that everything on these boards is automatically real. I think that is a reasonable approach don't you? I have great respect for the way you collect, and your info and opinions are much welcomed and hold a lot of weight with me. Some here seem to want me to let you do all my thinking for me though and I doubt you agree with that either. I hope I am not one who makes you feel like you don't want to bother posting because we have all learned a lot from you many times and I would hate to see that stop.

Best, Sal

[Sal Williams]

Bob, I also don't think that all vets are liars or delusional etc, but I think that they might not remember everything, as well as that if they didn't have the stuff locked up all these years, a son who collected or many other reasons could lead to a badge being added , switched etc. Maybe a "better one" was found and put on. A swords model is missing from the set. Doesn't it seem like someone might have found a droop tail gold without swords and replaced a "lesser" bronze with swords? (or silver with swords, I am not sure from those pics about finishes). Considering 5 SK are shown wouldn't you expect to see the 5 regular grades? There are some reasons why the SK could not be original to the board even if the boards are good.

Best, Sal

[Bob Hritz]

Sal, to me the SC in Gold without Swords is just one of those anomolies that I cannot explain. I have several General Assault badges in bronze, which are also direct bringbacks. Either mistakes were left in the factories and ended up with souvenir hunters or there was post-war finishing and assembly of awards, for those same souvenir hunters. In either instance, they are of interest and will, perhaps, someday be solidly explained.

Of course, this is just speculation and I cannot add any further factual information to this discussion.

Bob hritz

[Robin Lumsden]

It was not directed at you Robin.

Thanks Sal.

[Robin Lumsden]

........they will, perhaps, some day be solidly explained.

That is the key thing in all of this.

New information is always coming to light and, as it does so, perceptions and understanding will change.

[münster]

Does anyone have contact with S&L?

a member approached me some time ago to put an ad out in the paper there looking for old employees from the time period, I bet some are still kicking around. The place is about 20 minutes from me, they still are in business making various medailles. If anyone is interested in trying to find workers from there Id do a bit of groundwork if its not such a longshot, just an idea.

Iam out of humor today Robin due to someone trying to charge me 300 e for an ek1 UNMARKED at that

EDIT
Bob, I understand your thoughts being i have had the weirdest stuffcome in from older folks which are considered fakes, but with droop tails, idunno. not my thing and I would only take one directly from the soldier who earned it or his widow. Things like eks with 925s stamed on the pin and these sort of things I have found in private and no one believes in them.

[Leroy]

Finishes are strange things. Here's a (poor) photo of a Meybauer I just took. It's the crested version, with swords removed (presumably at the factory, as Meybauer liked to do, since this one came directly from a vet) and so it is supposedly the bronze grade. It has been untouched for all these years. Sure looks gold from the front, although the rear is darker.

Is it possible, although the disputed cross looks gold, and is described by "emedals" as gold, that it is really just a bronze version?

[Leroy]

Rear